Storm Skiing 11/2/2026: Big Ski Wants Lawsuit Dismissed; Sutner on Ski Area Consolidations, Expansions

Who

Shaun Sutner, Snowsports columnist for the Worcester Telegram & Gazette & Telegram.com.

Date Recorded

Nov. 2, 2026

The take up top

I referenced a Snow Brains article covering the big SkiCos motion to dismiss a lawsuit filed this summer accusing BigSki of collusion in pricing and business practices. I wrote about this lawsuit back in August:

The update is that the ski area operators think this lawsuit is dumb and without merit. The non-update is that while I agree with them, I also believe that this is a problem of their own making in that pricing walk-up lift tickets as though they’re Fabergé eggs is bound to make people hate you enough to take legal action.

Why I interviewed him

Same as it ever was – Sutner is a great journalist and a great interview, and he’s always keyed into what’s happening in New England. We spend a lot of time discussing new ownership groups and expansions:

Transcripts

There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.

Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.

Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.

Zoom

Stuart Winchester: My guest today is a very good friend of the Storm, appearing now for the sixth consecutive year. He has been covering New England skiing as the snow sports columnist for the Worcester Telegram and Gazette.

00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:37.000

Stuart Winchester: and Telegram.com for more than two decades. He also does a bunch of AI stuff, which he can tell you about if he wants to. Sean Sutner is my guest. Sean, awesome to have you back. How you doing? How hyped are you for ski season?

00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:47.000

SutnerS: Oh man, I think I’m the most hyped I’ve been in like 10 or 15 years for some weird reason. I don’t know why. I mean, it just, maybe it’s all this dumb warm weather we’re having.

00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.000

Stuart Winchester: No.

00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:54.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, I think you also had a couple truncated seasons, right? So this is your chance… are you healthy?

00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.000

SutnerS: Yes.

00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:59.000

SutnerS: Yeah, yeah, I couldn’t ski last, uh, October, November, or December.

00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Right, okay, okay.

00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:06.000

SutnerS: So I tried to make up for it in January. I had an injury from the year before, but yeah, I’m healthy and ready to go. More than healthy.

00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:19.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, let’s talk real quick about next weekend. I’ll put this right up top for our guy Doug Fish. We’re both gonna be at Snovana New England, the inaugural one, next weekend. I will be…

00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:35.000

Stuart Winchester: 30, interviewing Eric Mogensen, the owner of Indy Pass and Black Mountain and Entebeni Systems. Then Saturday at 2:05, I’ll be interviewing Phil Gross and Mike Solomano, uh, in order they are the owner.

00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:41.000

Stuart Winchester: or sort of managing partner and president of Killington, and then tell us about your session on Sunday.

00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:58.000

SutnerS: I got the prime slot on Sunday at one o’clock. I am interviewing Chris Dempson and Courtney Crowley, who the so-called next gen leadership of Wachusett. They’re the children of the current owners and their cousins.

00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.000

Stuart Winchester: John?

00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:13.000

SutnerS: They’re young and a lot of fun, and they’ll really get into the spirit of Snowvana, which always reminds me of Nirvana, which is where the founding father, Doug Fish, is from Pacific Northwest. And the main thing is get it done before the Pats game at four.

00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:24.000

Stuart Winchester: That’ll be done. You know what, Sean? I’m gonna… now that you need any more admin, I’m gonna hassle Doug here, uh, because check this out. On, uh, on your speaker slot…

00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:27.000

SutnerS: No, no, it’s okay.

00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:38.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s wrong with this, Sean? So I’m showing my screen for those watching on YouTube at Storm Ski Journal, and on StormSkiing.com. Apparently, Sean Suttner is with the, uh, billed as being with the Storm Skiing Journal. Um, so I…

00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.000

SutnerS: Oh!

00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:44.000

Stuart Winchester: I guess I… I guess I get more flex than, uh, the Worcester Telegram and Gazette these days.

00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:47.000

SutnerS: Wait, wait, sign me up for this. Yeah.

00:10:47.000 --> 00:11:03.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, no, I’m teasing. They can fix that. I also have a promo code for my listeners, THESTORM2026, or THESTORM26. I’ll make sure it’s correct on this podcast, but they can get a free ticket to Snovana. So let’s stay on what you said here.

00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:13.000

Stuart Winchester: Sean, so last year, they put in a six-pack, it opened a little late, but talk about… because we’ve seen this a lot around skiing, where you have a family-owned ski area.

00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:30.000

Stuart Winchester: First generation passes along, maybe the second generation loves it, maybe the third generation does or doesn’t. It looks as though Wachusett is going to stay family owned. What’s your read on it? What do you think about everything going on at Wachusett? I guess start with the Lyft and tell us about the ownership.

00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:46.000

SutnerS: All right, starting with the Lyft. I mean, Lyft actually was a surprise success, even among most naysayers, which was really a positive development. I mean, no Lyft lines. What’s this? It went from Lyft lines to no Lyft lines.

00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Really? Even on busy periods?

00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:47.000

SutnerS: Wow.

00:11:48.000 --> 00:12:07.000

SutnerS: Oh, yeah, that was kind of the point of it, of the new lift. Well, nights, early night skiing, no lines, at least in a single line. And then Saturday and Sunday, like up until noon, really no lines to speak of. It worked really well. They have a funny little problem up at the top.

00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.

00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:24.000

SutnerS: where the down ramp is actually not steep enough. So I think they might have regraded a little bit this summer, not sure. They also have a big chair barn that they have some problems with the manufacturer and getting that thing operational. So the chairs never went under there last year.

00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.

00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:40.000

SutnerS: So hopefully they will go in this year. As far as the succession or will it stay in family hands, I’ve heard 0% chatter that it will not stay in family hands. It’s going to stay in family hands. The question is, which of the family?

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:58.000

SutnerS: his hands. Um, but it’s… it’s still in really good shape, and plus Jeff Crowley and Carolyn Crowley-Stimpson, the two owners, are… they’re… they’re very young at heart, and they still ski race at a tremendous, uh, uh, level, and love skiing, and are in good shape, and they’re not going anywhere anytime soon.

00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:09.000

Stuart Winchester: So, Wachusett has this unique problem where… I just want to go back to the Lyft for one second. They’re on state land. I know they wanted to expand back, I think, maybe in the 90s.

00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:10.000

SutnerS: Yeah.

00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:17.000

Stuart Winchester: They couldn’t do it. There’s old pine stands or something, old tree stands on the mountain. So it’s really narrow trails, and so they’re…

00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:34.000

Stuart Winchester: they can’t really do anything with the trail network they have. It’s… it’s a lot of trails coming off the top. I think the concern was the six-pack right here, right up the gut, would overload the mountain. I mean, you ski at what you said a lot. What was your experience with volume? So, there’s no more lift lines, so there’s people…

00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:27.000

SutnerS: Mm-hmm.

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:42.000

Stuart Winchester: people are somewhere, uh, you know, they’re either in the air or they’re on the trail, so… so what was your read? Did… would you say it feel more crowded to you, skiing?

00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:58.000

SutnerS: Not really, maybe a little. Look at Conifer. It’s not that skinny, actually. Okay, so they only have four trails coming off the top, but Conifer, their longest trail, sort of, I’d call it a solid blue square with a couple of blue square plus sections.

00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:53.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:13:58.000 --> 00:13:59.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:13.000

SutnerS: That can handle a lot of skiers. A lot of regular everyday skiers don’t even ski Smith-Walton, right? And then their toughest trail, most steepest. And then when it comes down to the bottom, Smith-Walton really does widen out a lot.

00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Umm.

00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:31.000

SutnerS: So then then you have a lot, you know, beginners and intermediates spreading out really nicely over here. They’re kind of packed on Ralph’s run. I mean that that could use a little widening over here. It’s not going to happen, though it did do a little bit of widening at a few of the junctures to put in the 6 pack.

00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:22.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.000

Stuart Winchester: OK, OK, all right.

00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:43.000

SutnerS: Just a little trimming around the edges, but you can notice it at Wachusett, where every square foot is important. You can kind of notice a little bit of widening around, a little right around here.

00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I wasn’t able to ski it last year, so just back to the ownership real quick. What, in your mind, does the next generation have to do.

00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:57.000

Stuart Winchester: to preserve what Wachusett is as an independent, or to improve it.

00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:13.000

SutnerS: Ooh, to improve. Well, as you said, there’s no expansion on the table. In fact, I covered the State Supreme Judicial Court decision at the time in the ‘90s as a reporter, as a news reporter. I went down and covered it. It went straight up to the Supreme Court of Massachusetts.

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, okay.

00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:32.000

SutnerS: they turned it down. There was, like, one environmentalist from Boston who shot it down, basically. Um, and, you know, I’m an environmentalist, too, but I’m biased in favor of ski expansion. Uh, what can they do? What can they do in Washington? Well, I would say… well, they just renovated the… the secondary, uh, high-speed quad, um…

00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:33.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:43.000

SutnerS: the Minuteman, um, and that, you know, they renovated it, but they could probably use a, you know, an upgrade there, maybe in 5 or 10 years, like a new lift.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:44.000

SutnerS: Um…

00:15:44.000 --> 00:16:01.000

SutnerS: They could. I can’t think of any surface lifts. Well, the lodge is this sprawling, magnificent lodge, but it was. It was, you know. It’s got 2 bars or 3 bars, or maybe 4 bars. I don’t know different restaurants, and it’s great, but it was built in. I think it was built in the seventies.

00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah.

00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:11.000

SutnerS: So, you know, that could maybe get upgraded again. They did put a whole new wing on it about 10 years ago, but all right, something like that.

00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:23.000

SutnerS: I don’t know, what else? I don’t know, it’s just a smoothly running machine, you know? It’s a Cadillac, a Cadillac of a small skier in a huge metro, uh, major metro market, you know?

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.

00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Do you have any idea what kind of skier visits they do there? What kind of numbers?

00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:35.000

SutnerS: Oh, yeah, yeah. As of 3 years ago, it was the floor was 350,000. I think it’s gone up to well above that.

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, those are big numbers for a small ski area, and that might be one of the biggest skier visits per square acres in the country. We don’t really know, because numbers at the busiest ski areas.

00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:55.000

Stuart Winchester: are hard to come by, uh, now that they’re treating them as a state secret. So let’s stay on expansion, because you said something interesting there, Sean, that…

00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:57.000

Stuart Winchester: You covered Wachusett’s…

00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:06.000

Stuart Winchester: efforts to expand, and I just know about this from reading about it, so you know about it firsthand. So one of my concerns… let’s go up into New Hampshire here.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.000

Stuart Winchester: And there are…

00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:15.000

Stuart Winchester: three big expansions in process, right? So, so Loon announced the 272-acre.

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Black Ridge expansion, and they announced that in September. And then, just a couple weeks later, they announced another big expansion.

00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:35.000

Stuart Winchester: over on Lincoln Peak, and I will share my screen again here so we can talk through this. So, so they announced this, and this is all on Forest Service land.

00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Right? And then you also have Waterville Valley, which is right down the road from Loon, just not right off the highway like Loon is.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000

Stuart Winchester: is…

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:56.000

Stuart Winchester: you have, uh… they’re trying to increase their Forest Service boundary, so they can actually get down to the town of Waterville Valley, because right now.

00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:10.000

Stuart Winchester: they don’t have a connection. So, it’s… uh, let me pull that one up real quick. So, what’s your concern level? So, what I… what my mind immediately went to is, look, this is awesome. It would make Loon the fourth largest ski area.

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.000

Stuart Winchester: In New England, uh, it would give…

00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Boeing control over, I think, 19% of all skiable acreage in New England with their four ski areas. I love how aggressive they’re being. The other expansion is over here, Black Ridge, so it’s… so one is as far as skiers right off North Peak, that’s gonna be all Glades.

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:42.000

Stuart Winchester: The other is Farskiers Left off Lincoln Peak. That’s gonna be four new lifts, uh, put in place over years and years and years. There’s gonna be a gondola connecting to the town of Lincoln. And then, just to bring up the Waterville Valley.

00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Plan quickly is.

00:18:46.000 --> 00:19:04.000

Stuart Winchester: what’s the best? Okay, here’s the best image of it here, is where the town of Waterville Valley right now, you have to drive all the way around, they have these terrible parking lots that are all, like, sunken, and you have to, you have to walk up. So they’re gonna put a little ski trail over to these lifts from the parking lots, over to this gondola.

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:10.000

Stuart Winchester: It would come right out of the middle of town, they don’t show that here, but it would come right out of town, and go up here. So…

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:15.000

Stuart Winchester: first of all, you know, any thoughts on these expansions? But what I’m really worried about is…

00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:27.000

Stuart Winchester: is there going to be this sort of litigation that ends up holding these things up for years and years? Or has the climate changed in New England? It’s around…

00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Environmental preservation to the point where people are accepting some development or or do you have any read on that at all?

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:56.000

SutnerS: I think the latter accepting a little bit more development. I mean, Loon has proven amazingly successful at overcoming any nascent opposition. There hasn’t even been a ton of opposition to Loon expansion, which is mind boggling, and and their expansion is just staggering, and it’s wonderful. I mean, it’s like every time they add another section. It’s.

00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:11.000

SutnerS: get to the skiing gets so much better there. I mean so many more options. And this is all the tree skiing, and I’m not sure they’ll move snowmaking even in there to overcome the lack of snow. Just kidding not gonna happen. That would be that would be, you know.

00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:26.000

SutnerS: counterproductive the the this. So they they’ve been expanding over the last 20 years, like almost every year. I mean, I forget when Boeing bought them. But it’s a it’s amazing. And now they’re gonna be right on top of the town.

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:23.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:43.000

SutnerS: which is great because New England doesn’t really have many skiers. The town is actually right at the foot of a skier. That would be Ludlow with Okemo, basically. So that’s really good. And they have had a little wrangling over that pulse gondola that’s going to go up there.

00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:58.000

SutnerS: Because it’s, like, two hotels. I don’t know if the hotels are squabbling amongst each other, or the town is squabbling with the hotel, so there’s that. Waterville, that would be earth-shaking if they ever… that would be game-changing if they ever, uh, came through with that.

00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:02.000

SutnerS: I mean that that would make waterfall into.

00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:19.000

SutnerS: into a, you know, even more of a destination than it already is, even though it’s a few miles off the highway, whatever. And those parking lots, I mean, I parked in those parking lots for the last 25 years carrying multiple pairs of skis out because my kid was ski racing a lot in Waterville.

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:35.000

SutnerS: and it was agony. But I did call in as a podcast guest once with like 3 pairs of skis on. It was David Crowley, Jr. Junior’s old Tb. Podcast, called the Church of Skiing, with a Reverend David Crowley, Jr. He got in trouble with that with the authorities at.

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.000

SutnerS: What chooses the ski area he actually owned at that point.

00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.000

Stuart Winchester: All right, so in my mind.

00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:48.000

Stuart Winchester: These are exactly the kind of expansions that New England needs, because…

00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:05.000

Stuart Winchester: Waterville Valley, it would go right to town, reduce car traffic, right, so you don’t have to do this unnecessary, stupid drive from where all the buildings are. And then… with Loon, same thing. You take this gondola, it’s the gondola you were referring to in the lower right corner here, uh, this, yeah, something’s going on with that, it was supposed to be built this year, and.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:21.000

Stuart Winchester: And they nixed it, but the town is right here, and so you would have Waterville going right to town, you’d have Loon going right to town, and then you could build up around it, and then, on top of that, you have Killington. Because what’s always been funny to me about New England is that.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:27.000

Stuart Winchester: When you think of New England, like, the stereotype, as someone who’s not from this area, you think quaint, small towns.

00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.000

Stuart Winchester: But none of our ski areas, really.

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:36.000

Stuart Winchester: are in towns, and they should be. Okay, two… yes, tell us about the two exceptions.

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.000

SutnerS: Two exceptions. Two or three exceptions.

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:53.000

SutnerS: Oh, okay, so as far as towns, I mean, the new Killington town, the modern, you know, town of the future, it’s gonna be the greatest thing that ever happened in Killington, and there’s been a lot of great things that have happened in Killington. Alright, so I would say North Conway is the number one ski town in, uh…

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.000

Stuart Winchester: Right.

00:22:53.000 --> 00:23:11.000

SutnerS: New England, North Tomwood, New Hampshire, right? It’s got proximity to amazing mountains, more amazing mountains than any other ski town, and none of them are in Vermont, those ski areas. But still, when you put those six together, including Sunday River and Pleasant in Maine.

00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:55.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:27.000

SutnerS: in aggregate. They’re just as good as Vermont, in my opinion. You also have access to Cannon, and you have tremendous variety of it’s a middle class vacation spot. That’s another great thing about it. It’s in this unmatched natural setting in New England, and it’s got, and it’s somewhat affordable.

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:45.000

SutnerS: Then second best ski town would be Stowe, Vermont, which is not affordable. It has the best skiing in the East, though. It’s my favorite ski area in the East. It’s the longest running, beautiful ski town in New England. And the funny thing about that is the town is pretty far away from the ski area.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:54.000

SutnerS: Um, it’s… the action takes place along the, uh, the mountain road, as it does in many places. But, um, anyway, what do you got up here? Tillington?

00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:58.000

Stuart Winchester: This, this is Killington. So, so, so yes, those are both great ski towns.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:06.000

Stuart Winchester: but you can’t ski right into town, like you can at Park City, or Aspen, or Telluride. What’s that?

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.000

SutnerS: Granted more.

00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.000

SutnerS: Well, does it, does scam work out in this town?

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000

Stuart Winchester: I don’t… I mean, you kind of drive through that neighborhood, it’s kind of up off the strip, right?

00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.000

SutnerS: Yeah, yeah.

00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.000

SutnerS: Yeah. You’re right, you can’t ski into town at any of these.

00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.000

Stuart Winchester: So.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:26.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what I’m hoping that we can develop in New England is more of a destination ski town culture. Now, I think for ski towns to work.

00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:40.000

Stuart Winchester: they can’t just be a bunch of condos that people visit two weeks a year, and then Airbnb the rest of the time. I think you should have people living there, and you should have things like, you know, pharmacies, and barbershops, and grocery stores.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:49.000

Stuart Winchester: the things that actually make a place, and if they could do successful place building in New England, I think that would go.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:25:02.000

Stuart Winchester: quite a lot toward evolving New England skiing, as it really, you know, it’s so easy to get out West these days. And so more and more of these places are competing with the West. So, just as far as…

00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.000

SutnerS: Yep, yep, for sure, yeah.

00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:00.000

SutnerS: Okay.

00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Loon goes, I mean, and Boeing, so to lay out the timeline here, so this is what you said, sorry, I gotta… So Boeing purchased…

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.000

Stuart Winchester: Loon, Sunny River, and Sugarloaf in 2007, but then…

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.000

Stuart Winchester: It’s.

00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:30.000

Stuart Winchester: leased them to CNL, or leased them from CNL. It sold them to CNL, and CNL owned them until 2019 or 2018, and then Boeing bought them back. That’s why there’s been this explosion in development.

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:36.000

Stuart Winchester: What do you think that Boeing… so we have 3, kind of, big…

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:53.000

Stuart Winchester: you know, out-of-state conglomerates that own ski areas, a number of ski areas. So you have Vail, which owns 7 in New England, 4 in New Hampshire, 3 in Vermont, and Altera owns 2, both in Vermont, and Boyne owns 4, 3 in Maine, and 1 in Lune. As you watch Boyne operating, they’re putting in.

00:25:53.000 --> 00:26:03.000

Stuart Winchester: and they’re gonna replace the gondola at Loon, and they’re expanding. What are they doing right that you think the other big operators could learn from?

00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.000

SutnerS: How about willingness to invest capital?

00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:12.000

SutnerS: I would say that. How about imagination and what kind of lifts where?

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.000

SutnerS: Um…

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:16.000

SutnerS: How about they love skiing?

00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.000

SutnerS: Um…

00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:34.000

SutnerS: I don’t know, but they are doing almost everything right. The only thing that might go wrong with them is they neglected Sugarloaf for many years, which is pretty much over. They’re paying some attention up there. Also, there’s a little competition between their ski areas, I think.

00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.000

SutnerS: Yeah, okay.

00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:46.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, what do you think of Pleasant, now that Boyne’s been there, and they replaced that… one of the longest triples in the East, tallest triples in the East, with a high-speed quad, a refurbished one, but basically a.

00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:53.000

Stuart Winchester: from Sunday River. It’s the old Jordan quad from Sunday River. What do you think about the job they’ve done there?

00:26:53.000 --> 00:27:13.000

SutnerS: Spectacular. I actually have not been there since they since the new lift. I was there the year right before. I’ve been skiing pleasant for 25 years. Even when it was called Shawnee, it still kept going. It’s got great terrain for the size of mountain it is, and it’s surprisingly accessible. And.

00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:04.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:06.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:16.000

SutnerS: They put it… I think they put it on the New England patch this year?

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s on the New England Pass, correct, and it’s also on the new Snow Pass. It is not on the Icon Pass. It’s the only one of Boyne’s properties that’.

00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.000

SutnerS: um…

00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:22.000

SutnerS: Hello?

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.000

SutnerS: Hmm. Okay.

00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:40.000

SutnerS: Yeah, it’s a great ski mound. It never gets crowded there. And the the 4 packle, the high speed quad will make it even less crowded. Maybe I think they redid the lodge. The lodge was tiny. I think they’ve expanded a little bit, and they have some parking problems there.

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:29.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:50.000

SutnerS: But great ski area. Happy to see it in Boyan Hands. They did the right thing by keeping it off the New England pass for a little while. And I don’t know. It’s great. Love it.

00:27:49.000 --> 00:28:00.000

Stuart Winchester: So speaking of ownership changes, a big one this year, Smuggler’s Notch, now majority owned by Bear Den, which Bear Den is a company…

00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.000

SutnerS: Oh, boy.

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.000

SutnerS: Yep.

00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:18.000

Stuart Winchester: that was formed when… to buy Burke Mountain, that then bought Berkshire East and Catamount, and then Smuggs, and then they made John Schaefer CEO. So John Schaefer’s a good friend of the Storm, I know he’s a good friend of yours as well. I love how aggressive he is, I like how big he thinks.

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:34.000

Stuart Winchester: What’s your thoughts on him buying Smugs and what they should do with that ski area, which is second snowiest in New England, second biggest in New England, 323 inches of snow a year, 2,600 vert, just an awesome, awesome ski area.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, with maybe some outdated infrastructure. Well, not maybe.

00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:55.000

SutnerS: Some updating? I think you could do a wholesale updating of that place. But that’s not going to happen, because you want to keep some of the character. Schaefer and Bairden, and that whole new, emergent, independent, major, major force in New England.

00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:13.000

SutnerS: is probably the best thing that’s happened in New England skiing in three decades. Smugs is one of the greatest mountains ever. It was actually in danger of, I think, going out of business. It’s going to keep it in business. It’s going to add… I think they’re eventually going to overcome some local resistance and put up.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Really?

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:18.000

SutnerS: at least one high-speed quad in the near term, not this year.

00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:32.000

SutnerS: Uh, already done a lot of snowmaking, which they really, really needed. Uh, they’re gonna… all kinds of these, uh, allow skin… skinning for the first time, which is counterintuitive. You would think they would have had skinning. No idea.

00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:34.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, yeah, if you would have asked me, I would have said, of course.

00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:55.000

SutnerS: Yeah, but they didn’t, for some bizarre reason. And Jon Schaefer made a point of saying about skinning by saying when he visited there last year, after they bought it by purposely skinning up and down symbolic gesture. I don’t know. I I just think it’s gonna be phenomenal. I mean, they have a great new Gm. Didn’t they get Brandon Swartz, or.

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:36.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, Brandon Schwartz came over from, uh, uh, Attach.

00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.000

SutnerS: from editing.

00:29:57.000 --> 00:30:03.000

SutnerS: That guy’s one of the most brilliant young GMs in the East Coast, and uh…

00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:15.000

SutnerS: Great move. Uh, I wouldn’t have called that. Uh, I don’t know, it’s just, uh, have… they’re gonna make this mountain just better. And, you know, it’s already phenomenal, maybe.

00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:20.000

SutnerS: Second to Jade Peak is probably the gnarliest, you know, place in New England.

00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:36.000

Stuart Winchester: So I got the trail map up for those watching on YouTube, a Storm Ski Journal on stormskiing.com, and as a quick orientation for the viewers, listeners, far looker’s left is the kind of the beginner mountain, Morse, and these are… this is probably the slowest double chair in existence, no kidding, right here, this Mighty Mouse.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:53.000

Stuart Winchester: They came from Magic. Then you have Madonna Mountain. This is the expert’s haven. They have the only triple black in New England. It’s, uh, it’s nasty, it’s rowdy. This is a 2000… let me get my numbers right here. This is a 2,150 vertical foot.

00:30:53.000 --> 00:31:08.000

Stuart Winchester: 6,719-foot-long double chair. I believe that’s the longest double chair in the United States, is the Madonna. And then you have kind of a great intermediate pod over here on Sterling, and there’s another long double chair here. And this is where you would skin over.

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:13.000

Stuart Winchester: if you wanted to go ski at Stowe. So, looking at that.

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:23.000

Stuart Winchester: what would be your priorities, Sean? Because these are all double chairs, and I had these up for Schaefer. 29,439 linear feet.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.000

SutnerS: Yeah, I remember you calculated that, yeah.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:29.000

Stuart Winchester: of double chairs, and then they have to replace. So, so where would you go with this, and…

00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.000

Stuart Winchester: Well, just tell me first where you’d go with it.

00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:38.000

SutnerS: Well, first of all, I’ve been skiing at Stowe Smuggs Connection since I was 16 years old.

00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:39.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:47.000

SutnerS: Um, we actually walk over. Uh, you ski a little bit on your skis, and then you walk over. Um, I don’t know if… that’s gonna continue, right? Obviously?

00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:52.000

Stuart Winchester: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but I think the lift, the gondola is dead. The proposed gondola.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.000

SutnerS: Yeah, alright, so…

00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:56.000

SutnerS: God, oh yeah, that is extremely dead, although I like that idea a lot.

00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.000

Stuart Winchester: I did too.

00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:07.000

SutnerS: Uh, the… I don’t know, I don’t know where the new lips should go, I really don’t know, I just think there should be one here, and one here.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.000

SutnerS: At least. Okay.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:12.000

Stuart Winchester: Uh, so where… sorry, where are you pointing? To…

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:14.000

SutnerS: Oh, to, uh, Madonna and Sterling.

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah. You know, I think…

00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:28.000

Stuart Winchester: that the least controversial upgrade would actually be at Morse. I think you could get rid of both these doubles and put in a high-speed quad with a mid-station.

00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:35.000

Stuart Winchester: Because the high speed is great for beginners, where they load. You know, here’s the thing, and I…

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:41.000

Stuart Winchester: I agree with you, that would be great to put high-speed… did you say high-speed quads on Madonna and.

00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.000

SutnerS: Good, yeah.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:33:01.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so these are double chairs, and the Smugs Nation will freak out, but the example I always use is Alta, because Alta, 25 years ago, I don’t know if you skied it when it was old Alta, but it was all double chairs. And what they did is they really consolidated, they replaced, in most cases, two chairs with one.

00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:58.000

SutnerS: Yes, I did. I did, yeah.

00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:13.000

Stuart Winchester: And now they have all high-speed quads, but one, you know, Wildcat, one fixed double, and I’m sure that they’ll replace that at some point. It’s in their master plan to do so. What’s your…

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:18.000

Stuart Winchester: message to people who think that Smug’s…

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:24.000

Stuart Winchester: is the double chairs, right? So if you get rid of the double chairs, you sort of lose the essence of smugs.

00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.000

SutnerS: Well, I think skiing is the essence of skiing.

00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:45.000

SutnerS: with better, faster lifts, or more modern, comfortable lifts, anyone over 200 pounds can actually sit on it with someone next to them. I think you get more skiing in, and I go to a ski area to ski, rather than sit on a lift, in my opinion.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:51.000

SutnerS: Okay, but I’m not. I don’t live there, and I’m not a died in the wall. Smug skier.

00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:08.000

SutnerS: Uh, I don’t think it’s gonna change the character. You can put the lift, make him look like an old lift, just make him fast or something. I don’t know. Um, I would be happy with just one. Um, and I know John Schaefer has said he’s gonna go slow, but slow for him is faster than everybody else.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:25.000

Stuart Winchester: So you’ve known John for a long, long time, and you saw the progression as he took over Berkshire East from his father, who arrived there in the ‘70s from Michigan, and Schaefer was basically born and grew up on the mountain. So you’ve seen how he operates.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.000

Stuart Winchester: You know his…

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:31.000

Stuart Winchester: demeanor, his… his intent…

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:42.000

Stuart Winchester: what would you… what do you think smug skiers should expect with him as the CEO? And I know Brandon’s there running things on the ground, but I think Schaefer’s gonna be guiding a lot of the ski decisions.

00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000

Stuart Winchester: What can you say to…

00:34:45.000 --> 00:35:02.000

Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, give confidence to Smug’s skiers that this is the right dude to own it, and maybe I’m being too reductive, maybe I’m reducing Bear Dent to Schaefer and making this a cult of personality, so I might be guilty there, and you can check me on that if I am, but I do think he’s going to be the guiding hand, and I’m really curious to.

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:05.000

Stuart Winchester: What you think about him being there?

00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000

SutnerS: Well, John Schaefer is the CEO, so he is the guy, and although he resists being called by any title, you ask him his title, he won’t tell you. He might say CEO now. I think they can trust him, and they already do. He had meetings with them as soon as after he bought.

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:08.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.

00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:37.000

SutnerS: smugs. They bear down on smugs, and he had a series of meetings with the town. I mean, who does that meetings with, you know, scruffy locals. Only only Schaefer would actually reach out and and do that so politically quite astute. On the other hand.

00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:24.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.000

Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:58.000

SutnerS: if you call that political. On the other hand, he is do things 1st and then ask permission later. That’s why he can manage 19 skiers, or 5 or 4, or whatever it is at the same time. If you count Bosque and Hermitage and bike parks in Arkansas, Kingdom trails, and all the different things he does.

00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:04.000

SutnerS: I think he’s going to move as fast as his constraints will allow him.

00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.000

Stuart Winchester: What do you think of smugs on IndiePass?

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:12.000

SutnerS: Just phenomenal, way long overdue. Oh my God, that is just wonderful.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.000

Stuart Winchester: Yeah.

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, Sean, there’s one more ownership change I want to talk to you about, so…

00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:32.000

Stuart Winchester: our guy Jeff Homer, who was part of Pleasant Mountain, and I’m not sure how well you know Jeffrey, but his family ran Shawnee Peak slash Pleasant, then sold to Boeing 2021, and then Jeff went down and bought Blue Hills, which is kind of in your backyard.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:47.000

Stuart Winchester: And Jeff did something really cool. So it’s not super obvious on the trail map, but you see he put in two rope toes. And so I love this move. So he put in, uh, one over here. Actually, these are carpets. Uh, and then this is a rope toe.

00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:57.000

Stuart Winchester: on the main hill, because Blue Hills is unusual in that it only has one double chair to the top. It’s a very busy area. What’s your take on Blue Hills and Jeff’s ownership so far?

00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:17.000

SutnerS: Oddly enough, I don’t know Blue Hills that well. Never skied there. One of the few places in Massachusetts never skied and don’t really plan to because Worcester rules New England, Massachusetts skiing. Because we have actually three areas near Worcester and Boston only has one, which is kind of ridiculous.

00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:32.000

SutnerS: But then again, Boston’s at sea level. So what he’s doing. I’m a big supporter of surface lifts as you are, and that’s a that’s a really smart move. And their snow making situation has always been problematic. But anything that can.

00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:20.000

Stuart Winchester: Okay.

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.000

Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.

00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:37.000

SutnerS: Let Boston people ski a little bit easier and closer to home is fantastic. I mean.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:42.000

SutnerS: So I’m happy to see, and he’s got a great reputation, and I’m happy to see that.

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:47.000

Stuart Winchester: Alright, Sean, let’s walk off on that, but you will be back…

00:37:47.000 --> 00:38:04.000

Stuart Winchester: in about 2 minutes for us, and, uh, tomorrow for the listeners, and we’re gonna break down our favorite New England resorts, and the… our top 5 lifts that we would like to see replaced in New England. So, thank you very much, Sean, appreciate it always, and I will talk to you.