What
Main stage today belongs to Kovach, who agreed to come on the podcast like 90 years ago and waited patiently for his turn. But just as I wrapped this pod, breaking news slammed my inbox: Alterra has selected their next CEO after dismissing Jared Smith in March. From the press release:
Alterra Mountain Company … today announced that experienced hospitality and operations leader Kelly Vohs has been appointed Chief Executive Officer, effective October 19, 2026.
Vohs brings nearly 30 years of experience leading customer-facing, operationally complex businesses across hospitality, real estate, and technology. Previously, Vohs spent more than a decade leading companies within Blackstone’s portfolio, including recently as CEO of LivCor. Most recently, he served as Chief Executive Officer of SafetyCulture, a global frontline operations platform used by more than 85,000 organizations and supporting more than 2.5 million frontline workers.
Earlier in his career, Vohs led operations for BR Guest Hospitality, a New York restaurant group with more than 20 restaurants, and held leadership roles at several iconic hotels, including as General Manager of the Boca Raton Resort & Club and the Waldorf Astoria Chicago, and as opening General Manager of the Conrad Chicago. He also served eight years as a Green Beret with the U.S. Army’s 10th Special Forces Group at Fort Carson, Colorado Springs, completing four combat deployments.
First - I am not sure whether Vohs is any relation to the Wisconsin Vohs, who have done such an excellent job building Cascade Mountain. I’m not sure if he skis or really knows anything about skiing other than that it requires snow and idiots to strap six-foot-long planks to their feet so they can slide down it. But I won’t dismiss him as a viable next leader for Alterra simply because his resume is not some jumble of Whistler-Intrawest-ASC-Sunday-River-Big-Bear. Plenty of individuals without ski industry backgrounds have successfully run U.S. ski areas - Win Smith at Sugarbush is one of the best examples. But I’m not sure if anyone with zero ski industry background has ever run such a large ski company.
I give a bit more perspective in the pod, and I’ve already bothered Alterra for an interview. Stand by.
Who
Evan Kovach, General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey
Date Recorded
October 5, 2026
About Mountain Creek
Owned by: Snow Partners
Year founded: 1965
Pass affiliations:
Snow Pass – 2 days, no blackouts
Snow Triple Play – up to 2 days, no blackouts
Pay attention, because these passes have overlapping, but different, rosters:
Base elevation: 448 feet (bottom of South Peak and Bear Peak quads)
Vernon Peak: 452 feet
Granite Peak: 605 feet
South/Bear Peaks: 448 feet
Summit elevation: 1,458 feet (top of Sojourn double)
Vernon Peak: 1,403 feet
Granite Peak: 1,453 feet
South Peak: 1,444 feet
Bear Peak: 1,126 feet
Vertical drop: 1,010 feet – top of Sojourn lift/Granite Peak to South/Bear base
Vernon Peak: 951 feet
Granite Peak: 853 feet
South Peak: 996 feet
Bear Peak: 678 feet
Skiable acres: 167
Average annual snowfall: 65 inches
Lift count: 9 (1 cabriolet, 2 high-speed quads, 2 fixed-grip quads, 1 triple, 1 double, 2 carpets)
Why I interviewed him
I mean:
In Defense of Mountain Creek
It’s in Jersey, first of all, that crease of bland sprawling chainstrips and shipyards and chemical industry tucked between ever-beating Manhattan and the vast treed infinity to the west, the East Coast’s version of flyover country, a noplace you must drive through on your way from New York City to anywhere south or west. To the extent that anyone outsi…
I’m a bit obsessed with Mountain Creek, and it’s been a secondary subject on many past podcasts:
For reference
In 1998, Intrawest pulled off one of the most audacious single-season ski area transformations in American history, demolishing 15 double chairs and three surface lifts and replacing them with five modern machines. Check the before and after:
Pretty amazing. It’s too bad Intrawest sold the place off in 2010. It stagnated for nearly a decade before onetime parking-lot attendant Joe Hession bought it in 2019. It’s been all rocketships since.
I still, however, pine over this old early-Intrawest masterplan, showing additional trailpods and lifts between South and Granite peaks:
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Zoom
The Zoom transcript only contains my conversation with Evan Kovach. Please use the other transcript to read/skim my take on Alterra’s new CEO.
Stuart Winchester: My guest today has been General Manager of Mountain Creek, New Jersey since 2020. Mountain Creek spans more than two miles along four peaks served by nine lifts.
00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Since 2019, Mountain Creek has been owned by Snow Partners, which also operates the nearby Big Snow American Dream indoor ski area, the beginner-focused train-based learning program, Snow Cloud Resort operating software, and the Snow Pass and Snow Triple Play. He has worked at or around the resort for nearly two decades. Evan Kovac is my guest.
00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Evan, welcome at last to the storm. I don’t know if I said your last name right, I’m sorry, but so good to finally track you down. How’s life in Jersey today?
00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:51.000
Evan Kovach: It’s great. Thanks, Stuart. And actually, you did pronounce my last name correctly, which is very rare. So thank you for that. And thanks for having me.
00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Look at that. So, I had the general manager of Mount Southington on the pod the other day, and I was calling it Mount Southington.
00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:04.000
Stuart Winchester: So I messed up the whole scary Mountain Creek, I think is an easy one. You know, Evan.
00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Folks are hard on Mountain Creek, uh, if they have skied at bigger ski areas, but I think the place is awesome. You know, it’s a thousand vertical feet with, with high speed lifts, an hour and 15 minutes from my house on a weekend morning with no traffic. So, uh, and, and I think.
00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:36.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, part of it’s, uh, and I’ll give you a chance to comment on this, but my perception is people think it’s kind of a wild place, uh, and sometimes dysfunctional, but I think under Snow Partners, they’ve really modernized, and at the core of that.
00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:40.000
Stuart Winchester: is snowmaking. So, what can you tell us about…
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:47.000
Stuart Winchester: how the snowmaking system has evolved since Snow Partners took over, basically, your tenure from 2020 to now?
00:04:47.000 --> 00:05:02.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, absolutely. And snowmaking is something I’ve been passionate about since I was about 5 years old. So when I first started skiing, I would download ski resorts trail maps to Microsoft Paint and color in trails that I think they should be snowmaking on.
00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:18.000
Evan Kovach: Um, so it’s something I’ve always kind of played with as a kid and now I get to do it, um, as a career. So that’s, that’s a pretty cool thing for me. But obviously, uh, two years ago we invested $5 million in automation, um, with TechnoAlpin. So that was, uh, 40 TT9s and TT10s.
00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:28.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and that allowed us to get open our primary terrain on our primary peak, um, you know, much faster, and, um…
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.000
Stuart Winchester: When you say primary, are you talking Vernon or South?
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.000
Evan Kovach: I…
00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:45.000
Evan Kovach: Yes, Vernon Peak. So, upper horizon, lower horizon, the base area. Um, it allows us to open up our main base lodge to rentals and ski schools, so that’s really our core terrain. Um, a lot of our season pass holders, if they’re listening, they’re probably saying, what about south?
00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:05:45.000 --> 00:06:02.000
Evan Kovach: And one of the intended consequences of automation there was we could focus our 60,000 CFMs of air over to South and Bear Peaks. That gets our train park open, you know, the primary place our season pass holders call home open, ski racing, all of those things.
00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:15.000
Evan Kovach: Um, it’s funny when you look at the whole puzzle, we were always so heavily focused on using so much air, and when we added in this automated system, we started drawing water at a rate that even exceeded what our calculation said.
00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:33.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and then, you know, fast forward the past couple of years in the New Jersey, New York area, we’ve had somewhat of a drought, um, until this summer. Um, so, you know, this past winter, we realized we really need to work on water management, um, not so much the core aspects of snowmaking, like buying more snow guns, or.
00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:50.000
Evan Kovach: uh, more automation. It was entirely water management. So we’ve installed regeneration pumps, um, at the bottom of the mountain. Something somewhat unique about our resort is the snowmaking, uh, lakes are at the top. So, uh, so we installed a couple of pumps so we could capture runoff as it comes… Oh, there they are!
00:06:50.000 --> 00:07:09.000
Evan Kovach: um, about seven lakes up there, and we could pump from those back lakes forward to the lakes that we actually pumped down, um, the mountain into, so… But as I was saying, we could now draw from those streams that are coming off the mountain, pull it back up, um, so if we find ourselves in a drought again, we won’t find water as our restricting factor.
00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:20.000
Evan Kovach: Um, part of that is $4 million on dam, um, rehabilitation, which is probably the least sexy investment you can make as a ski area operator, but it’s part of the puzzle.
00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I know it’s, it’s sometimes hard to quantify these things beyond.
00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.000
Stuart Winchester: dollars spent. But I’m curious if…
00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.000
Stuart Winchester: You can give us any sense of.
00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:47.000
Stuart Winchester: the pace at which Mountain Creek has been able to open, or open all of its trails, or I know a big point of contention is always connecting Sojourn and connecting north and south via trail. So, do you have any, if not numbers, anecdotes of.
00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Of how much…
00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Better, you can manage the mountain with your snowmaking system now than 5-6 years ago.
00:07:55.000 --> 00:08:10.000
Evan Kovach: Sure, yeah, I mean, I think the past two winters have proven it, right? We’ve opened in very early in December versus mid to late December, or, you know, in some really terrible winters, we would open in January, which obviously makes the P&L look ugly, and it’s not great for our guests. But, um…
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:17.000
Evan Kovach: you know, what I can say is, and it’s kind of to what I, uh, you know, ties into what I alluded to before, with.
00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:35.000
Evan Kovach: all of the automation that’s going on on Vernon Peak, we could send all of that air across the mountain. Um, whereas in the past, we’d be focusing on what we call our Phase 1 trails, um, and, you know, we’d get those open and be like, okay, let’s go to Phase 2. Now, on Night 1, we’re already focused on what we would have considered Phase 2, which includes getting down to Granite.
00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:53.000
Evan Kovach: And then getting over to Sojourn, which connects the peaks. As you said off the hop, Mountain Creek skis so much bigger than people realize when all four peaks are open. It spans two miles. There’s four unique peaks of skiing. And when I say unique, they do have different terrain.
00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:59.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and different styles of terrain, which I think, um, you know, a lot of folks who ski here all the time really appreciate.
00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, what can you tell us about the history? Because these were actually two separate ski areas up until the 1970s, and I think that probably plays a part in how they were designed. And in my personal preference, I almost always just park it south because the parking’s easier, and I like the mountain better. It’s just got the best fall lines, I think.
00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:15.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, but, but talk about the differences between, you know, uh, Great Gorge and Vernon Valley.
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:39.000
Evan Kovach: Sure, sure, I could tie that into snowmaking, too. So, um, you know, Great Gorge is, if you’re watching, um, what you see on the right part of the screen, that’s the former Great Gorge. It now encompasses present-day South Peak and Bear Peak, um, and then to the far left would be Vernon Valley, which is.
00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Sure.
00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:45.000
Evan Kovach: present day, um, we call it Vernon Peak, though everyone else calls it North. I think at some point, we’re just gonna have to start calling it North.
00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:09:45.000 --> 00:10:03.000
Evan Kovach: Um, but a funny story, so, um, Big Al Lazer’s been running our snowmaking for over 50 years, and he worked at both resorts at times, but, um, there was a point in time where he was working for Vernon Valley, and there was somewhat of a rivalry between Vernon Valley and Great Gorge.
00:09:51.000 --> 00:09:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:12.000
Evan Kovach: So he would, at night, uh, with his crew, go over to Great Gorge and steal some of their snow guns and throw them in the lakes up, up, uh…
00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.000
Stuart Winchester: What?
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.000
Evan Kovach: Up right behind, uh, Vernon.
00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Throw them in the lakes.
00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:23.000
Evan Kovach: And with the droughts this past year, it was the first time he’s ever actually seen the guns at the bottom of the lake. They’re still there.
00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh my god.
00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:26.000
Evan Kovach: So that’s a that’s a little fun story about our snowmaking.
00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Like the big cannon guns, or the… or the sticks, or what… or the little, like, weird homemade ones?
00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:45.000
Evan Kovach: No. They were they were they were little ground mounts. They were little ground mounts that were actually handmade with, like, rebar, welded to them as as as bases. And, yeah, our water we made so much snow in December last year that you could actually see them at the bottom.
00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay.
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:56.000
Evan Kovach: of, uh, Stewart Lake, which is one of those two lakes on top of Vernon Peak, so… we were having a good laugh at that, because I was like, why, why, what is that in the water? And he’s like, oh, I got a story for you, and…
00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh my god.
00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.000
Evan Kovach: Quite a story.
00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:12.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s amazing, Evan. I think a lot of people have probably seen Class Action Park, which details, uh, the life and death of, uh, you know, whatever amusement park used to live at the base, and you’ve… this was all…
00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:24.000
Stuart Winchester: pre-snow partners, but that’s quite a story that we’ll save for another day. But they’re designed different, and they ski different. The connection is great. As long as we’re here.
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:25.000
Stuart Winchester: On this…
00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:33.000
Stuart Winchester: map that you can see if you’re watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube at Storm Skiing. There’s…
00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:38.000
Stuart Winchester: A couple cool things about Mountain Creek’s history, so…
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.000
Stuart Winchester: I want to pull up.
00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.000
Stuart Winchester: A little map here.
00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Not that one.
00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, so Mountain Creek…
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Where did I, where did I put that?
00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:12.000
Stuart Winchester: No, not that one. Alright, I’ll… I’ll track it down, but uh… so… so Mountain Creek has some abandoned trails, which I’ve talked about before with Hugh Reynolds, and it has…
00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Some potential trails that were laid out a long, long time ago.
00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:18.000
Stuart Winchester: And I want to…
00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:33.000
Stuart Winchester: bring up this map. So this was… this right here is really cool, Evan. I’m sure you’ve seen this. So this is… was IntraWest’s… I believe this was IntraWest’s initial master plan. So here’s Vernon or North.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.000
Evan Kovach: Oh, yeah.
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and here’s South, and here’s Bear, and here’s Granite. And then, right here is an abandoned trail.
00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:57.000
Stuart Winchester: And right here is an abandoned trail. Well, let’s start with that, Evan, and Hugh Reynolds has told the story on the podcast before, but it was 2019, and so I have a lot of new listeners. So tell us why these two trails that were a part of Mountain Creek for quite a long time.
00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.000
Stuart Winchester: are no longer active trails.
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:17.000
Evan Kovach: Sure, yeah, so, um, the first one you highlight that kind of goes around, um, used to be called Granite View. Um, I actually lived in the condo that’s just below that trail. You can see the development down there. So I would spend most afternoons and evenings hiking with my dog up that trail, because it’s still cut.
00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.000
Stuart Winchester: On the way.
00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:33.000
Evan Kovach: Uh, we still use it as a service road, but the part that most people miss is there’s about a 300-foot section that, as I’m hiking up it, is actually downhill. Um, so if you’re skiing down it, it’s actually uphill. Um, there’s really not much that I find fun about.
00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:44.000
Evan Kovach: I would find fun about skiing down that, and the amount of snow that it would take to fill in that uphill, um, just really doesn’t make it worth it to focus on. Um…
00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:50.000
Evan Kovach: So there’s my answer for Granite View, like, the uphill just doesn’t, doesn’t make it make sense.
00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.000
Evan Kovach: And then Pipeline, I think, is the other trail you highlighted there. Is that correct? Yeah.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah, that’s pipeline. It was actually labeled double black when it was on Mountain Creek’s trail maps, so…
00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, but yeah.
00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:18.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, and again, um, the pitch on pipeline, it was steep. Um, that pitch was fun, but ever since the condos were built, um, you know, there’s a hard, hard right after a really steep pitch. And, um, you know, for a lot of our clientele, that could be super deceptive compared to our other.
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:28.000
Evan Kovach: Black Diamond Trail, so it’s just something we didn’t think was safe to keep open, and, you know, as long as… I think it’s safe to say as long as Joe and myself are here, it’s not something we would reopen.
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, there was, uh… I think people were getting in over their heads, and there was actually a fatality.
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:40.000
Stuart Winchester: on that trail that I believe preceded that closing. So that made that decision. So we go back to this.
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:47.000
Stuart Winchester: this funny plan here, and… you know, I… skiers always want more, right? Mountain Creek, as you said, it’s 2 miles wide.
00:14:47.000 --> 00:15:03.000
Stuart Winchester: However, these are kind of intriguing. Uh So, so this trail, I don’t know if this was ever an active trail, but it’s, it’s sort of, you can see it on Google Earth still cut in and people poach it and they come down here down this old, I don’t know what that is if it was a cut for a lift line or what.
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:14.000
Stuart Winchester: But there’s this little trail pod from connecting south to, you know, Sojourn, and then there’s another trail pod, and this actually, when you’re riding the lift, this terrain looks really cool.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:22.000
Stuart Winchester: and I know Mound Creek’s super rocky, so it’s not easy to make new trails, but just talk about these trail pods, if you ever think about them, if they’re just done.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:34.000
Evan Kovach: I personally think about all the terrain all the time. We have a lot of open space on the mountain, so, um, you know, I like to play, um, fantasy GM and say, you know, if…
00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:50.000
Evan Kovach: If resources were unrestricted, what would we do with all of this space? Um, a lot of it, um, again, going back to the way gravity works, it’s not as realistic as it looks when you draw it on a map, even, even a topo map. Um, I’m really into trail running and I spend a lot of time in those woods because.
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:15:50.000 --> 00:16:00.000
Evan Kovach: mountain bikers have made a lot of trails, um, and I could tell you they’re not entirely downhill, um, especially coming from south over to Sojourn.
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:06.000
Evan Kovach: There’s spots in there where, you know, you have to come back uphill, unless you go really far down.
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:12.000
Evan Kovach: At which point, um, you know, the condo development starts to get in the way of your method back to the bottom of south.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.000
Evan Kovach: Um…
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:25.000
Evan Kovach: You know, the woods, the woods are very nice there. Um, on a, on a snowy season, I, I would say that, you know, some people could have a lot of fun in there, although I don’t encourage or condone that.
00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:40.000
Evan Kovach: But, um, yeah, right now we’re really focused on what we currently have in terms of trails, the snowmaking on those trails, and investing in lift infrastructure to support those. I think that has to come first before we, we start looking at these additional pods.
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:55.000
Evan Kovach: I mean, going way back to the Vernon Valley Great Gorge days, there was a lot more lifts at Mountain Creek, um, as, as I’m sure many of our, um, as many of the listeners know, and many of our pass holders know, but, um, you know, with mid-mountain lifts, when you’re talking about a thousand vertical.
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:16:55.000 --> 00:17:05.000
Evan Kovach: It starts to get a little silly to be spinning off these things when they really don’t have a distinct reason for circulation or flow to exist in the first place.
00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:20.000
Stuart Winchester: So this was one of the most amazing transformations, and I’ve talked about this in the pod with a bunch of people, like Frank DeBerry, who lived through it, and it’s so incredible to me. This is Vernon Valley Great Gorge, circa 1989. You can see there’s so many chairlifts just everywhere.
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:34.000
Stuart Winchester: And then IntraWest comes along and they take out 15 Borvig doubles and three surface lifts in one summer. One summer! And they build South Peak high speed quad, Bear high speed quad, Granite fixed.
00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Cabriolet and Sugar fixed quads. So it was an amazing transformation. But here we are. We’re in 2026. That was 28 years ago. All these lists are the same age. Well, Sojourn was built in 2012 or something, and Vernon Triple’s much older.
00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:59.000
Stuart Winchester: But talk about the current lift fleet, and, you know, Joe Heschen on the podcast once talked about maybe bringing back this lift.
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:10.000
Stuart Winchester: that goes from, uh, Vernon back up to Great Gorge, or I’m sorry, uh, Granite, but what’s the current thinking? And he also talked about maybe a six-pack.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:15.000
Stuart Winchester: over here to replace, or an 8-pack to replace the, uh… the triple, but…
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:21.000
Stuart Winchester: all kinds of things, and I know it’s always changing, so what’s on your mind right now as far as Mountain Creek lift upgr.
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:36.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, that this image haunts me. So, uh, thanks for sharing that five, five lifts all at the same time. Cause you know, right? Um, yeah, obviously Partek, Partek’s in the next town over. Um, we had all those Borvig lifts and we still have a couple, couple part, uh, Partek’s and one Borvig.
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:41.000
Evan Kovach: Um, still spinning here, so it’s nice to have Hoggin right next door. But, uh…
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:57.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, IntraWest came in, we got those 5 new lifts, um, and that’s really part of our focus right now, is, um, you know, we’ve talked about putting another workhorse lift next to the Cabriolet. We love the Cabriolet for certain aspects. We know skiers hate it for taking off their skis every run.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.000
Evan Kovach: Um, trust me, that’s why I like to ski south as well.
00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.000
Stuart Winchester: So.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.000
Evan Kovach: But, um…
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:17.000
Evan Kovach: You know, what we want to do first is invest in the infrastructure we have. So something we’re looking into right now is modernizing the Cabriolet to modern controls, putting in a new motor, really throwing several million dollars into that lift to keep it going for the next 20 years.
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:29.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and then the same, you know, can be said for South and Bear. Those lifts are gonna need some love soon. Obviously, the Cabriolet spins 10 months out of the year, so it has a lot more hours on it, and that’s the first priority. Um…
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:46.000
Evan Kovach: Personally, again, if we go back to playing Fantasy GM, I’ve always wanted a fixed grip lift coming out of the South and Bear base area. Right now we have two detachables. It’s a beautiful thing. We could send almost 5,000 skiers up per hour with those two lifts, but I always get nervous in the event of…
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:46.000 --> 00:20:03.000
Evan Kovach: of ice. I’d love to have a fixed grip lift there. Um, you know, I’ve heard Mike Solomono talk on your show about their strategy around having, you know, fixed grips as redundancy for the detachables, and, you know, hasn’t really been an issue to date. We’ve had some delays, you know, on those icy mornings, but.
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:19.000
Evan Kovach: that’s more in fantasy land. But for now I think the focus remains. You know, we invest millions of dollars into our lifts. It’s something every resort has to do again. It’s not the sexiest money we spend to keep existing lifts, you know, built to modern standards. But it’s super important.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:27.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and Interest knew what they were doing when they made this change, right? They, they really looked at skier circulation, they looked at how the flow would work.
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:38.000
Evan Kovach: And to me, this puzzle works. Um, we’ve learned some things about lift opening times, like the Vernon Triple. We open a little bit earlier now to get… to get more skiers up on top of Vernon Peak.
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Evan Kovach: The, uh, the lift you… you hinted at that would follow, kind of, Osprey from Granite Peak to Vernon, that’s something we’re still looking into as well. Um, that would really transform our beginner experience. Um, with the Cabriolet, we could send beginners up on foot. They could, uh… they could ski that really gentle terrain at the top of the mountain, and…
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:12.000
Evan Kovach: we find that to be unique. Um, you know, a lot of times beginner skiers say, oh, I’m gonna go skiing, and they wind up, you know, at the bottom of the hill all day, never see a ski lift, so if we could give them that experience, we think that would be, you know, transformative, so… so that one’s certainly still on the list, but…
00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I just want to jump in one second. So this beginner area is really cool. It doesn’t look like anything on the trail map, but it’s where you have the terrain-based learning setup, and you have the carpets. I don’t know if you’ve been up to Bel Air, but they did an awesome job at the top of their gondola.
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.000
Evan Kovach: Sure.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:37.000
Stuart Winchester: putting in a covered carpet, and of course, they have an unlimited budget, so they can do whatever they want. But, uh, have you thought about a carpet up here somewhere? That would be really neat, because…
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:48.000
Stuart Winchester: I know it’s New Jersey, but it’s beautiful. It really is, and people have this idea of Jersey, but I’m telling you, I love it up there. So, is that something that you’ve considered, in addition to a chairlift?
00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Evan Kovach: You know, I personally haven’t thought about a carpet, but it’s not a bad idea. Part of the goal would be to keep that beginner traffic away from upper horizon, just because that’s the primary way people take down off the cab. You know, the cab fits 8 people, the triple fits 3, obviously, so…
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:21.000
Evan Kovach: Um, you know, that trail, we don’t want to crowd anymore by, A, taking up space with a surface lift, and B, adding more skier traffic that’s just circulating that trail. Um, I think the reason why we talk aerial lift is because it used to exist, right? The lift line you could still see on Google Maps, so…
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:28.000
Evan Kovach: Um, we think that would be easier, but hey, a carpet, certainly something we consider. Certainly, uh, a little bit less money, right?
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, exactly. And then, uh, what about Sugar Quad? Joe’s hinted at maybe a reorientation of that lift, or… or, uh, you know, other… some moving it, maybe?
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:55.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, we’ve looked at… we’ve looked at a few different alignments, and whatever we do there would likely come, um, at the same time as we, um, put additional lift, you know, alongside or somewhere in the vicinity of the Cabriolet. Um, those two decisions kind of go together.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:11.000
Evan Kovach: I don’t think we would do one without the other, or at least we would do one knowing where the other would happen in the future. But yeah, the alignment that you’re referring to would be the kind of the base terminal of the Sugar Quad would move over to Looker’s right, exactly.
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Okay.
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:26.000
Evan Kovach: Yep. And then that would open up more, um, beginner terrain in that area. You see kind of the tree line to the right of, uh, the sugar slope. Um, that could be opened up. Um, you could create some really cool, um, beginner terrain, maybe some like family cross kind of stuff.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:32.000
Evan Kovach: um, some bank turns, um, pulling our TVL up onto the, uh, the sugar slope a bit.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, this sugar slope is pretty steep, I think, for a green. I still remember my daughter coming down when she was little. I mean, she’s in college now, but running into the safety fence right here because she just couldn’t stop. And that’s on me for taking her on something she wasn’t ready for.
00:23:49.000 --> 00:24:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s, I can see why you’d want to put something at the top. Uh, okay. And what about like that, uh, that eight pack or six pack? Would that go, you know, Joe had hinted replacing the Vernon triple with that and, and has also talked about maybe putting it over here. Any current thinking around that?
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, I mean, we’ve looked at a lot of alignments, um…
00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:23.000
Evan Kovach: you know, and what keeps kind of ringing true when we look at that is we would likely put it near the Cabriolet’s current line. Um… the triple line, although it opens up, you know, the triple-bound ski trail and spreads things out a bit, um…
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:39.000
Evan Kovach: the existing line is built for a triple, and the 6 pack would require, especially detached, will require a lot more width. And you’re looking at going, you know, kind of through the water park, through the condo development. The trail map doesn’t show it perfectly here the way it’s drawn. But.
00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Evan Kovach: you know, the challenges of following that triple lift line are much greater than those putting it next to where the cabriolet line currently exists. Um, but nothing’s set in stone. We, we, uh, we don’t like to, uh, you know, make decisions until we have to, so we have a few options there, and once the time comes, I’m sure we’ll…
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.000
Evan Kovach: We’ll get back into batting all those around and making the right choice.
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Evan, I have a couple of weird questions that came up while I was researching this, and it’s funny because…
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.000
Evan Kovach: Please.
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:12.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ve skied Mound Creek more than probably anywhere, because it’s so easy for me to get there, and…
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Stuart Winchester: there’s train tracks, I believe, back here, somewhere. And I read that in the 70s, there used to be trains, I think, from New York City. Is that…
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000
Stuart Winchester: is there still passenger rail that runs by? Would that be possible? Because that would be amazing, because it’s…
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:42.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, Mound Creek is close to the city, but if you don’t have a car, it’s really hard to figure out, so I don’t believe there’s a lot of buses to go there like they do to Hunter. Is there any… anything in that train line that’s possible?
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:56.000
Evan Kovach: Uh, not currently for passenger rail. Um, it’s something that, you know, local politicians have been looking at, um, Glantz State. Um, you know, the population in our corner of the state is a lot less than the rest of the state, so, um…
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:14.000
Evan Kovach: you know, that doesn’t help that argument. But, you know, you mentioned not as much bus traffic as perhaps some other places, and that’s kind of deliberate. You had mentioned earlier, you know, some people have this perception of Mount Creek being wild on weekends. That’s something we’ve been, you know, working pretty intently to change.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:29.000
Evan Kovach: And you won’t find, you know, 30 buses in our parking lot on a Saturday anymore. That used to be the case. And we’re really working to control that capacity. So, you know, as much as we want to be accessible to the, you know, the folks who don’t currently have a vehicle who might live in the city.
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:44.000
Evan Kovach: you know, there’s part of that equation where we’re deliberately trying not to keep people out of Mountain Creek, but, you know, to make sure we manage the crowds so that, you know, when you come here on a Saturday, you don’t leave with that experience. That’s not our intention, and, you know.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:55.000
Evan Kovach: Looking years back, it used to be kind of the place where, you know, operations would cram the place with as many people as possible and see how many could fit, and that’s definitely not our strategy any longer.
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:26:54.000 --> 00:27:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. Uh, Joe, last time I talked to him also hinted at maybe some changes with this stuff down here, I believe he was talking about. I’m just curious about this gigantic parking lot. I actually, when I go to Vernon, I park here because there’s no one over there and I don’t have to walk up this hill. So.
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:09.000
Evan Kovach: Yep, yep.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:25.000
Stuart Winchester: But that’s rare. I usually go to South and come over and ski over. But anything you can tell us about this sort of area and, you know, people, gosh, they hate this walk up here and then over the bridge over 94. I’m not sure what your shuttle situation is right now. Cause again, I don’t go down there.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:41.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, it’s a great question, and we have a team that’s currently looking, led by Frank DeBerry, um, obviously Joe’s part of that as well, but looking at what the future could hold for the base area. Um, IntraWest had grant plans, um, not only on the mountain, like you shared earlier, but also for the base area.
00:27:41.000 --> 00:28:01.000
Evan Kovach: And right now, the parking doesn’t really make sense. If you look at, especially just looking at this map, that large lot that’s at the bottom right, the Sandhill lot that you like to park in, it would really make sense if we brought that parking further uphill and closer to the base area, where you see, like, woods in that.
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:16.000
Evan Kovach: that concrete pad there, so that you know there’s some. There’s some grade in there that’s challenging. But as we look to develop we’re thinking that parking should come closer to the resort for our day guests, and development should come kind of a little bit further away off the.
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:25.000
Evan Kovach: Sandhill Road there, um, that corner of Sandhill and 94, where the parking lot currently exists. Um, you know, maybe a lift to bring people up to the base area, who knows?
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’d be really neat. And so you own all this here?
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:34.000
Evan Kovach: Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. That’s all one property.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Or lease it? Okay.
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and then…
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, any plans for this little parcel here, these little buildings?
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:42.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, I mean, that’s the old cobblestone village. It’s getting dated.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:51.000
Evan Kovach: we have a few different plans, and that would, again, be predicated based on what we do down below, but, um, I think the best use of that space is parking.
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:48.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:01.000
Evan Kovach: Um, keep the parking closest to the resort. Um, because that applies not only for ski, but also for water park, also for bike park. Um, our core business is people, you know.
00:28:57.000 --> 00:28:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000
Evan Kovach: using gravity on the mountain to to have fun. So we we that parking closest to the activity is is one of our weaknesses, and something that we can improve with these plans.
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, I wrote an article a while back called.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:19.000
Stuart Winchester: how to ski with your kids and not hate life, and a Mountain Creek hack.
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:24.000
Stuart Winchester: is not really a hack, but just something that I think a lot of people don’t know about, just skier drop-off.
00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.000
Evan Kovach: Exactly.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:37.000
Stuart Winchester: And that is so clutch here, because you come, you drop everything, your gear, your people, and just leave them, and then come park, and just walk over the hill with nothing. Or park it south, if you…
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:50.000
Stuart Winchester: get there in time, and can do that. You just gotta keep going a couple miles past to this parking lot here that’s across from South. Uh, can you give us any more Mountain Creek hacks, Evan, as a lifelong local?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:55.000
Evan Kovach: I mean, I think you just shared the best hack, which is parking at South.
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:06.000
Evan Kovach: generally, even on a peak Saturday or Sunday, there’s still parking there. Um, you know, the catch there is you can’t be a beginner skier and park there, right? There’s no beginner train coming out of that base area.
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.000
Stuart Winchester: And there’s drop off here too, even though the…
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:22.000
Evan Kovach: There is drop off there. I don’t even think you need it. I think you just park and walk across. It’s a flat walk. Um, it’s an easy walk and then you’re on, you know, you’re on a high speed lift in a minute. So that’s really the hack. Um, I do like what you shared over at Vernon Peak, the drop off.
00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.000
Stuart Winchester: The parking lot’s across. Yeah.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:30:17.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:38.000
Evan Kovach: is clutch. You typically see the, you know, the mom being dropped off with the kids, and then the dad’s gonna be the one to go across and take the walk. And, you know, we’ve really focused on how that drop-off works, too. It’s a place you’ll find Joe and myself there on a Saturday.
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:54.000
Evan Kovach: directing traffic, where we want to be really high touch, and, you know, help people unload their cars, and make it a fast process, but make it a fast process, right? We don’t want people lingering there for 20 minutes, because that doesn’t give the next person an opportunity to do the same, as in drop off their stuff.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:07.000
Evan Kovach: and park. So, that’s an area… it’s just funny you bring that up, because it’s an area that Joe and I will often be there on a Saturday, directing traffic, speeding things up, um, working on the process there, because it’s the ultimate process exercise.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I find that, uh, a lot of times, the perceptions folks have of.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Really busy places like Mountain Creek is just a lack of knowing what to do and sort of doing the wrong thing, like showing up at 11 o’clock on a peak Saturday and trying to park in the first lot you find and being put, you know, back in the woods and, and having to come up here and get rentals.
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:42.000
Stuart Winchester: But, but process is, is really important to, uh, and, and for, for folks who don’t know who Joe is, Joe Heschen, the, the CEO and founder of Snow Partners, which owns the ski area for the listeners. So he, when he came on the pod, I think last year, Joe shared some pictures with me of.
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:50.000
Stuart Winchester: the lines at Mountain Creek the year before they bought it to buy tickets, and the same place and time.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:32:03.000
Stuart Winchester: on the same date, or, you know, same equivalent Saturday, or whatever, the following year, and there was no lines. So, so talk about, you know, you just talked about the process with the, uh, with the drop-off, but just talk about the process with.
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:08.000
Stuart Winchester: The the snow is for the snow cloud.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.000
Stuart Winchester: operating system, and just how that’s…
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Linked to passes, tickets, and everything else at the resort, and how that smooths people’s journey.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:33.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, so SnowCloud was born out of, you know, basically the Snow Operating Team, looking at other resorts and spending time at other resorts trying to solve problems, really with the beginner experience and the arrival process and the guest experience overall.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:54.000
Evan Kovach: And what it kept coming back to was, you know, the problem could be solved, but the technology had to change. So now enter into the picture, SnowCloud. You know, prior to COVID, we got rid of our ticket booths that used to be in front of Redtail Lodge, which was, you know, bold at the time, but we had eight fixed windows that were restricting the amount of tickets we could issue.
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:09.000
Evan Kovach: Um, whether somebody bought online or was buying on site. Um, and that was really the start of, of really how the base area of Mountain Creek changed from a process perspective. Um, we also instituted, uh, rental time slot bookings at that time.
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:34.000
Evan Kovach: which now is becoming more commonplace post-COVID, but we had that prior to COVID just as a means to, you mentioned, you know, the family that plans to arrive at 11 a.m, that’s every family unless they have a time slot, right? So for those 2,000 plus folks who rent on a Saturday with us, now they’re organized into times, which smooths everything, right? It smooths the parking lot, it smooths the arrival experience in front of the lodge.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:51.000
Evan Kovach: It smooths, um, the cafeteria, right? Um, and it also smooths out the lifts. Now, one thing we found, and I mentioned this earlier, was with SnowCloud, we could issue tickets way faster, and not everyone’s renting, right? So, the line at the Cabriolet started to back up.
00:33:51.000 --> 00:34:09.000
Evan Kovach: at 9.15am, whereas in the past, it would take until 10.15, maybe 10.30, maybe 11. Um, and we’re like, what’s going on here? So, you know, we step back, and we start watching, and we’re like, oh, everyone’s getting their tickets so fast that they’re in the lift line now faster, they’re not in a line waiting for tickets, so…
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Hmm. Okay.
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:15.000
Evan Kovach: that’s where we changed the opening of the Vernon Triple Lift to be significantly earlier. Um…
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:30.000
Evan Kovach: it’s just funny how when you change one part of the ski area arrival process, there’s such a cascading effect to the rest of the mountain. We noticed Granite started getting more skiers earlier, so we have Patrol open that up as soon as they can now.
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:39.000
Evan Kovach: it’s really fun to kind of play with this puzzle and continue to tweak it, right? It’s going to continually change as we start to change things.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:45.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so another, another hack, Evan, and it’s related to all these, all these processes we’re talking about, is…
00:34:45.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mountain Creek Season Pass is amazingly cheap. Right now, it’s $369.99 unlimited. It started early bird at $329.99. And the really cool thing about it is that you can get access to South and Cabriolet Lifts at 8am on weekends, which is an hour before it opens to the public.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:17.000
Stuart Winchester: That is awesome, because this is, look, this is 1,000 vertical on South Peak, and I’m telling the listeners here, and it’s a high-speed lift, so it’s like a, what, a 5-6 minute ride, and you can get 10,000 vert in a couple of hours, and, you know.
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:33.000
Stuart Winchester: The cool kids don’t show up till 10 30. So I would get there at eight and it might, I’ve been a little absentee on mountain creeks. I started the storm because I’m skiing all over, but I’d get there at eight and just bam, bam, bam, bam. And you got fun little jumps all over here. And, and you do a really good job of.
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Evan Kovach: Sure.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Making like approachable features for, you know, like a middle aged dad. I’m not going to like go off the big, the big ones that are over here on buddy’s way, but, but I’ll go on like the little ones you put on canyon and giant steps. Those are super fun. I get a little air and feel like I’m cool for five seconds until a snowboarder won’t r.
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:40.000
Evan Kovach: Sure.
00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:04.000
Stuart Winchester: On the next ride. But talk about that season pass and the kind of benefits of it. And also the Mountain Creek Triple Play is awesome. And that was the seed for the Snow Triple Play. So just talk about those products.
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.000
Evan Kovach: Yep, yep.
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:10.000
Stuart Winchester: And why that makes sense for you? Because it’s one of the best season pass deals in the country.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:25.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, first I have to comment on, uh, on the south arrival. That is what most of our season pass holders do, right? They get there at 8 AM, they’re out. Um, they’re either out by 10 AM, or they’re on the kink deck having a couple of beers at 10 AM, don’t judge them. Um, that’s just what they do, but.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:42.000
Evan Kovach: Um, and Fun Run, you mentioned, like, the, the jumps, we call it Fun Run, that’s Canyon down the giant steps, down to Bakersfield, down to Cloud 9. Um, the locals started calling it, so we call it that now, it’s our first open. But we have this unwritten rule that the GM has to be able to hit every feature on that run.
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. Right. Okay.
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh no, okay.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:57.000
Evan Kovach: Um, I… I am not a great park skier, so, uh, we do a lot of work with Effective Edge, Mike Pitera, and those guys on our park strategy, and… and that will be one we always have, that Fun Run has to be accessible to all. Um, and trust me, if I could hit everything on there.
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:13.000
Evan Kovach: virtually anyone could hit anything on there. But, uh, yeah, back to the season pass. We’ve always had a low-price pass strategy. Um, that’s just who we are. I mean, I always make the argument, too, that with our night skiing, the number of hours we’re open compares to.
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Evan Kovach: resorts up in New England. Um, you know, at least 10 hours, or at least 12 hours a day, we’re open. Um, so when you start to add up the total opportunity to ski, it’s… it’s an insane value. And then the triple play.
00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Crazy.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Evan Kovach: I think people think we’re nuts. Um, I know I’ve been told that I’m nuts before because of that product, but right now it’s selling for $109.99. Um, a single-day lift ticket is $119.99 on a weekend.
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:55.000
Evan Kovach: And the biggest catch, which isn’t a catch with that product, is there are no blackout dates. You could use it on MLK Sunday, during Christmas week, and on President’s Day. Those could be your three days. There are no blackouts. There are no restrictions.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:55.000 --> 00:38:02.000
Evan Kovach: And we sell it for less than the price of one Lyft ticket. Um, the sooner you buy, the more you save, obviously, but that’s a product, uh, you know.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:24.000
Evan Kovach: We, we, we sell tens of thousands of those, um, and they make great gifts, so people buy them as Christmas presents for their kids, and, you know, as I travel, as I travel the country a little bit more and meet other people at other ski areas, usually the first thing people say to me when I say Mountain Creek, they either, they either mention our water park or they mention the Triple Play. The Triple Play is so widely known, it’s, it’s pretty cool.
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, almost everybody I talk to on the lift, if they’re not a season pass holder, they do the triple play. I’ve never been clear, because I was a season pass holder, always. Does the triple play get the 8am access or not?
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.000
Evan Kovach: They do not.
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, and then, and then…
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:40.000
Evan Kovach: Keep that just for our pass holders.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, and let’s talk about snow pass and snow triple play. So, just to run these down for the listeners, the snow pass is currently $359.99, and the snow triple’s $184.99. The snow pass gets you 2 days each.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:02.000
Stuart Winchester: At a bunch of ski areas, and then the triple gets you a total of 3 days.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:18.000
Stuart Winchester: At a bunch of scary, so if you’re watching on stormskiing.com or YouTube, uh, this is Triple Play’s roster, anything with a number in here, and this column is anything that is snow pass. So, Mountain Creek is on both, with no blackouts. Uh, I guess to start, do they get the 8 AM?
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Access.
00:39:21.000 --> 00:39:25.000
Evan Kovach: The snow pass holders do, the triple play holders do not.
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, that’s important. Okay, cool. Now, and talk about…
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:49.000
Stuart Winchester: you know, because Mountain Creek, it was part of a network, right, with IntraWest back in the day, but they never really got their pass strategy going, you know, they went bust before they could do that. I guess they eventually turned into Altera and got it right, but you’ve been part of this network now for a full season with the triple play, and now the snow pass launches, and I really like…
00:39:50.000 --> 00:40:05.000
Stuart Winchester: the flow of this. If you’re in New York Metro, Snowpass is two days of big snow, two days of Mound Creek, two days of Bel Air, two days of Gore, two days at Whiteface, two days at Oak Mountain. So there’s a nice south-north setup, right? And it’s very affordable, very approachable.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, just talk about your expectations around…
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.000
Stuart Winchester: that pass, and…
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:17.000
Stuart Winchester: And what you anticipate it’s gonna be like to be part of this network of resorts that feed into each other.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:26.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, and obviously the Snow Triple Play was born out of Mountain Creek’s Triple Play, right? We’ve had so much success with that product, it just made sense, but um…
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:45.000
Evan Kovach: Mountain Creek is very uniquely positioned for this product, right? A lot of, you mentioned it, New York metro area. Um, it’s an insane product for those folks. There’s 20 million skiers within a reasonable drive time of Mountain Creek, and for all those folks, you know, Mountain Creek, 1,000 vertical feet, high-speed lifts out of the base area, it’s a great place to ski.
00:40:45.000 --> 00:41:03.000
Evan Kovach: but you want a taste for something a little bit more, too, at the same time, and I think the, you know, the Whiteface Gore Bel Airs of the world definitely provide that. Um, and then there’s also some options on there if you want to, you know, explore even a little bit more, but when you look at it just from… when I look at it from Mountain Creek’s perspective.
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Evan Kovach: You know, I encourage our skiers and riders to buy these products just because I think it’s great that they could get a taste of these other resorts. The skier in me says that, you know, if I was, you know, high school aged Evan, I probably would own a snow pass.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:34.000
Evan Kovach: Just because I love skiing Bel Air. I love skiing Whiteface. Those are places that I really enjoy. I mean, Platykill is a place I also enjoy. Always good to see Laz and take some laps there in the trees, but…
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:40.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, I think the offering for somebody who’s regionally based and is looking to explore is just, um…
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:45.000
Evan Kovach: It’s awesome, and the price point makes it well worth it.
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, Evan, let’s wrap up here. I would love to know… because one thing I really like about Mountain Creek…
00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:01.000
Stuart Winchester: is the way the trails are laid out, there’s so many routes you could take down that the mountain, at least to me, it always feels like I can be there.
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:16.000
Stuart Winchester: all day, and take different runs every time, just because the way they kind of cross and interconnect, and this is more of a traditional mountain, this has… you know, unfortunately, you have this green run across the fall line over on North, but what’s your favorite run if you just want to bomb Mountain Creek?
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:22.000
Evan Kovach: Oh, easy question. My favorite run is to take the South Peak Express to the summit.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:28.000
Evan Kovach: And then the Ski Trail Red Tail, which is looker’s right, far looker’s right of South Peak.
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:33.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, that guy. Redtail.
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:32.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000
Evan Kovach: um, down into Buddy’s Way, and then down Gorge Run to the base area, maybe cut over into the arena and hit one of the takeoffs from one of the rails. Um…
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Ivan, I’m not kidding you, that was exactly what I was going to say. Because on a day when it’s a little corn.
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:48.000
Evan Kovach: No way.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:42:51.000 --> 00:43:06.000
Stuart Winchester: you… because you come down here, and it’s so nice, and you get this steep, like, boom, for, like, two… two turns. Then you come here, you can do a couple side hits on the… on the… unless you want to hit the big ones, which I don’t. It’s kind of fun. And this can’t… the gorge is just so beautiful.
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:57.000
Evan Kovach: Nope.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:59.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Evan Kovach: Narrow, you got this right next to you, it feels like you’re kind of on one of those New England-style trails, yep.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Right, yeah.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Stuart Winchester: And it feels really long. So yeah, that’s amazing. So sorry to cut you off, but yeah, that’s always been a special route for me. I love doing that one.
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Evan Kovach: No, no.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:34.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, and the view from the ski trail, Red Tail, is so, so beautiful. Um, just when you get to that, and it’s rolling, the pitch is rolling, and then, like you said, that steep Idrivetch drop is, is incredible. Um, that’s my favorite run, hands down.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. All right, so let’s walk off on this. You know, I’ve…
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ve nodded toward the perceptions of Mountain Creek, and you know, I may.
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Stuart Winchester: regurgitating old stereotypes that are not helpful to you, but I want to give you a chance to respond, because I talk to people all over the country. And I, you know, I know a lot of skiers who live in New York Metro, and they’re like, I only ski out west.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:44:01.000
Stuart Winchester: And I’ll talk to people on the chairlift, they’re from Jersey, I’m like, oh, do you go to Mountain Creek? They’re like, no.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:16.000
Stuart Winchester: I don’t know, man, if you wanna get three hours of turns on a Saturday, it’s pretty sweet to have, to have all that vert. But, but what, what, what’s your response to people thinking Mountain Creek is just kind of this wild place for teenagers and, and, and, you know, way too crowded and, and, and not worth.
00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:19.000
Stuart Winchester: going to, and I think, at times.
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:34.000
Stuart Winchester: the stereotypes are true, at times it gets very crowded, you know, you got 8,000-9,000 skiers on this mountain, or whatever it is, but just walk us through, kind of, your perception of modern Mountain Creek, and how it may differ from what has been put out there into the ether for a long time.
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, I think we’ve… I think the answer is something we’ve said a few times, but what I’ve found, because I have these conversations constantly, and a lot of times, those folks have never given Mountain Creek a try, right? They’re, uh… they say, I’m too cool for it, I’m gonna go up north, but uh… one more time, a thousand vertical feet.
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Evan Kovach: high-speed detachables coming out of every base area, except for granite, but that’s a super steep lift line that still gets you to the top in 7 minutes. And 4 peaks of varied terrain, right? It’s not like you’re taking one lift the whole time and skiing the same fall lines. You could… you could have 4 unique experiences as you ski across the mountain, so…
00:44:58.000 --> 00:44:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:26.000
Evan Kovach: I think the real answer there is give us a try, um, if you haven’t, because in my experience, most of those folks haven’t even tried to, uh, to experience this madness that you described, but, um, if you come to Mountain Creek on a holiday weekend Saturday at 11am.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:30.000
Evan Kovach: and plan to ski for 2 hours, you’re gonna get in less runs. That’s…
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:47.000
Evan Kovach: that’s a reality. I think that’s a reality at most ski areas, but, um, Mountain Creek midweek, um, either during the day or at night, you basically have the mountain to yourself. Um, you know, we’re so close to the population that they can get here and still… if you get here at 6 o’clock at night, you have 3 hours of skiing. That’s…
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:58.000
Evan Kovach: the amount of vert you could cover in that time with the… the detachable lifts is… is pretty wild. So, um, I guess my… my answer to those folks is 1,000 vertical feet, high-speed lifts, give it a try.
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And I have one more, one more dumb question. So people who have, like my brother-in-law.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:11.000
Stuart Winchester: who grew up skiing there. They still call it Vernon Valley Great Gorge. And they’re like, what’s it called? I mean, it’s been Mountain.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:09.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:20.000
Stuart Winchester: You know, when Boeing bought Shawnee Peak up in Maine, they changed the name back to Pleasant Mountain, which was the name it had in the 80s, and people loved that.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Do you ever get any…
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:31.000
Stuart Winchester: suggestions or pressure to change the name to Vernon Valley Great Gorge, but I think it was a very awkward name, and I like the Mountain Creek name, but do you ever get that from locals?
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:33.000
Evan Kovach: Yes.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Really.
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:48.000
Evan Kovach: Uh, yeah, we, I mean, we hear it all the time, right? And we like to pay homage to, to those two resorts that, you know, we now encompass. But, um, it’s almost like I was saying earlier, Vernon Peak, right? We’ve, we’ve been calling that Vernon Peak because we want to recognize Vernon, Vernon Valley.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:47:02.000
Evan Kovach: at the same time, everyone calls it north, um, just because there is a south, right? So, um, will we be changing the name of the mountain anytime soon? I don’t think so, but I also, you know, never say never. That’s not a hint to anything we’re planning.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, right.
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Alright, Evan, listen, I really, really appreciate your time today. I am way overdue for a trip to Mountain Creek. It used to be my regular bump, but I’ve been ignoring it, and uh… and I, you know, I need to come out and take a few turns with you.
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:20.000
Evan Kovach: Yeah, let’s take 10 laps one Saturday morning down Redtail into Gorge Run. How does that sound?
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:28.000
Stuart Winchester: I love it, love it, let’s do it, man. Alright, Evan, really appreciate you, I will, uh, I will talk to you real soon, and this will be out later today, so thanks so much for your time.
00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:23.000
Evan Kovach: Awesome.
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:35.000
Evan Kovach: Awesome. Thanks, Stuart. Thanks for everything you do, by the way. That spreadsheet, that is amazing. That is absolutely amazing.
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you. I’m trying to make it more readable. We’ll see.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.000
Evan Kovach: Awesome.
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:42.000
Stuart Winchester: So I appreciate it. All right, take care, Evan. Have a good day. Bye.
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:42.000
Evan Kovach: Yep.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:52.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Evan Kovach, the general manager of Mountain Creek.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:59.000
Stuart Winchester: I want to thank you for listening to the Storm Skiing Podcast. That will be our show for today.
00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Please subscribe to The Storm on StormSkiing.com.
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:14.000
Stuart Winchester: And upgrade to a paid subscription is the… upgrading to a paid subscription is the best way to support the Storm Skiing Journal and podcast. You can also follow us on Instagram.
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Twitter, or… I’m sorry. Well, you can follow me on Twitter, but I won’t post anything, it’s called X now. Follow me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, at Storm Ski Jour.
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Stuart Winchester: Next up will be Sam Weintraub, who we will talk to about Epic and Icon and Mountain Collective and India and the rest of the past landscape for next season. Until next time, stay well, stay safe. I’m Stuart Winchester, and I’ll talk to you again very soon.
