About Caberfae
Owned by: The Meyer Family
Year founded: 1937
Pass affiliations:
Ikon Pass: 2 days, blackouts
Freedom Pass: 3 days, no blackouts
Base elevation: 1,076 feet
Summit elevation: 1,561 feet
Vertical drop: 485 feet
Skiable Acres: 200
Average annual snowfall: 120 inches
Lift count: 5 (1 fixed-grip quad, 3 triples, 1 carpet – view Lift Blog’s inventory of Caberfae’s lift fleet)
The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, then click on any text block to teleport to the associated point in the video; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO; also since Tim and Pete were on one screen, the transcript does not differentiate between them).
Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.
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Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.
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Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan’s Lower Penins.
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Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.
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Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I’m always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?
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Pete Meyer: Good. We’re doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we’re feeling.
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Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim’s also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.
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Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that’s…
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there’s tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…
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Pete Meyer: It.
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Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I’m gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.
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Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it’s the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…
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Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn’t built yet. Now that’s in place and we’ll talk about that in a minute and how that’s gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we’re getting and why you’re building it.
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Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…
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Pete Meyer: I’m going to start with why, because it’s kind of an interesting story, you know.
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Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.
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Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.
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Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.
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Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.
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Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…
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Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.
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Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…
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Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.
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Pete Meyer: Now we’re gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.
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Pete Meyer: we’re going to give them a longer run, and the new part we’re giving them is actually the easier half. They’re already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it’s easier, it’s wider, it should be fine.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: And that’s what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.
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Pete Meyer: is…
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Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.
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Pete Meyer: They didn’t really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I’m only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.
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Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you’re coming into the top, and you… you know, you’re above…
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Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…
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Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: They’d get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…
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Pete Meyer: say, there’s no way I’m gonna go down, you know, I’m not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.
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Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I’m saying, um…
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Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.
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Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don’t take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…
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Pete Meyer: And so.
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Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.
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Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we’re just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.
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Pete Meyer: And…
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Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He’s like, you don’t understand. I can’t get them ready for East Peak on this.
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Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it’s like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
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Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn’t been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…
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Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.
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Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that’s the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…
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Pete Meyer: why it’s a two-year construction, because there’s nothing over there. No services. Um, so we’ve had… we had to…
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Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.
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Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You’re getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.
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Pete Meyer: uh, that’s just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it’s gonna show this, you know, it’s gonna take the new skier, um.
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Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that’s similar to what we have throughout the area.
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Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it’s going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it’s all built out, we should have 4 or 5.
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Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren’t just…
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Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn’t have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.
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Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it’s just a really neat development. So we think that.
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Pete Meyer: You know, even though it’s not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it’s going to be really popular.
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Stuart Winchester: I’ve always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I’ve always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.
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Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won’t die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.
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Stuart Winchester: here I’m looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you’re putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that’s the plan. I mean…
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Stuart Winchester: So you’re affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don’t know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.
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Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?
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Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don’t have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that’s a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.
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Stuart Winchester: Yep.
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Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn’t have…
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Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.
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Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad’s done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they’ve already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…
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Pete Meyer: Um…
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Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.
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Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that’s why we decided on… on…
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Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.
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Stuart Winchester: That’s fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it’s a riblet, which…
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Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one’s a SeaTac. So, I don’t know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I’ve seen a, there’s a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.
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Stuart Winchester: to show Peter’s excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I’m sure you’ve seen them. So, there’s a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.
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Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…
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Stuart Winchester: they don’t seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?
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Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that’s the artery. I mean, you know, more people.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.
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Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it’s the middle. And so it’s you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it’s really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.
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Pete Meyer: Um…
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Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.
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Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn’t have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don’t know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: Uh, we don’t run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it’s a redundant lift, and we don’t need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it’s not running some of the time.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it’s, as there’s kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.
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Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what’s the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don’t know if that’s still a possibility. I don’t know if they’re still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what’s the thought on.
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Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.
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Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you’ve skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that’s why we call it backcountry, because it’s a…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
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Pete Meyer: Because it’s a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
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Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we’re not doing the industry any favors. You know, it’s just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Pete Meyer: chair, and then we’ll have all green runs that’ll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it’ll be a really nice.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.
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Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…
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Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it’s one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn’t always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.
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Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.
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Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?
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Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it’s funny, I…
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Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…
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Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I’m not sure. I know where you’re going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we’re not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
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Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…
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Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don’t know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren’t going to lift serve it.
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Stuart Winchester: Got it.
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Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
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Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you’ll let me.
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Stuart Winchester: Sure.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let’s do it.
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Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.
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Pete Meyer: We’re talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.
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Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you’re looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: Um, so if you’re, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who’s never skied before.
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Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000
Pete Meyer: Rental.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000
Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it’s easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Pete Meyer: And you’re 30, you know, you’re 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you’re right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it’s really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000
Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000
Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I’m sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you’re right there, and you have this real easy area.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000
Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you’re ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000
Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we’re in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it’s going to work out extremely well.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you’re a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000
Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we’ve talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn’t have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here’s the road looping around, here’s the parking lot.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And then here’s all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…
00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet’s right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there’s a.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000
Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there’s two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It’s a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it’s going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you’ll see that word practice area.
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s cool.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000
Pete Meyer: It’s a great name for a learn to ski area.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here’s another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you’re taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000
Pete Meyer: Oh, that’s more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we’re actually off to the left. It’s all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it’ll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It’s gonna be really, it’s gonna be really nice.
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000
Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000
Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don’t know if that’s on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000
Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you’re looking at, we do own it.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Pete Meyer: I think that we don’t have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don’t want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that’s, uh, my…
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000
Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000
Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000
Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000
Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that’s really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn’t as good. So…
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Or did they?
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000
Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let’s talk passes now, and I’m.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000
Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I’m just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000
Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there’s no access, and there’s also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000
Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Pete Meyer: So we.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Pete Meyer: There’s a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000
Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we’ve been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000
Pete Meyer: We’re going to talk about — I’ll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it’s important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I’m like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he’s like in his raspy voice.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000
Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it’s like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000
Pete Meyer: You know what? That’s this.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000
Pete Meyer: It wasn’t, it was December 5th, 2019.
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I’ll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000
Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don’t know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don’t even know if you had it going then.
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow, that’s cool.
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yah.
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000
Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000
Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000
Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn’t in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don’t know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000
Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000
Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you’re like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I’m like, this pass is awesome, right? It’s great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we’re in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn’t know it was you until I was digging through the data. I’m like, oh, that’s.
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’s cool.
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000
Pete Meyer: That’s that’s so. So anyways, anyways, we’ll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I’m not sure about.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Love that.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000
Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn’t going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000
Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we’ll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000
Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000
Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We’re like, well, let’s let’s try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.
00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000
Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don’t even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000
Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000
Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000
Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we’re happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can’t fault him.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000
Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it’s just, he, he’s, he’s done a wonderful job with it. You know, he’s obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Pete Meyer: But he’s blown it up. He just had a different mission.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000
Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000
Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000
Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that’s 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It’s great for them, they get a lot of.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000
Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we’re seeing, and we’re watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there’s not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that’s ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000
Pete Meyer: And.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000
Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000
Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000
Pete Meyer: doesn’t move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn’t, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn’t have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000
Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric’s a stand-up guy. He’ll let anybody who…
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000
Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they’ll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that’s nice of him to do. Also, for those.
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000
Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He’ll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it’s a couple of really good things that he’s doing there, so we’re thankful, thankful for that. But, um.
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000
Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that’s reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you’ve got time.
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, let’s linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there’s another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000
Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don’t want to overstate it. What’s the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000
Stuart Winchester: The fact that you’re no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000
Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we’ve been getting…
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, we’ve been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000
Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let’s just… let’s just be… let’s just be independent and not on any… any, uh…
00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there’s a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.
00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They’re not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. That’s right.
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000
Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000
Stuart Winchester: They’re at, like, 9,000 feet.
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000
Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000
Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Pete Meyer: Then we, um…
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000
Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000
Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren’t in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000
Pete Meyer: We want to do what’s best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000
Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we’ve been hit as much as the negativity that you’ve seen online for leaving any pass, we’ve been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s.
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Pete Meyer: I’m gonna use it. I’m gonna take a trip. And then we’ve known we’ve gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it’s you’re by that 3rd day you’re waking up and you’re like you can’t even move your legs for you know we’re so so we think it’s a nice.
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don’t have to get in a plane. So it’s.
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody’s going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn’t even the, like Pete said, we’re, we do like our independence and, and.
00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000
Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we’re going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it’s it’s.
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000
Pete Meyer: It’s a it’s a great benefit for our core customers.
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that’s good for skiers, it’s good for.
00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we’ll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that’s what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that’s an awesome, awesome deal.
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it’s been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you’re really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000
Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000
Pete Meyer: No, you’re exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We’re trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That’s the day everybody wants to ski. So if you’re going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.
00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000
Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that’s one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000
Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000
Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it’s risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there’s, there’s a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek’s topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000
Stuart Winchester: This one’s a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.
01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I’m friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn’t know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000
Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.
01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000
Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000
Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he’s tough.
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000
Pete Meyer: And.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000
Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000
Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don’t… I don’t know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000
Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000
Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.
01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000
Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s great. I haven’t talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you’re doing great. Pete.
01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000
Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There’s so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let’s do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven’t been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I’ll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000
Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000
Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn’t really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there’s some lift ticket deals going on.
01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000
Stuart Winchester: And…
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ll tell you about the deals first, and then I’ll, I’ll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we’re gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000
Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000
Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.
01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.
01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000
Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I’d sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000
Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They’re play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They’re doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.
01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don’t know if that’s a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don’t think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000
Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000
Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we’re recording this on September 17th.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000
Stuart Winchester: But if you’re listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It’s not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000
Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…
01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I’m pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it’s funny ‘cause they didn’t even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen’s 80th anniversary.
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn’t announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it’s small, but it’s still, it’s, it’s a place you can go. It’s high. There’s no snow making. It’s all natural snow.
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000
Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you’re on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000
Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they’re $74 to $94. It’s a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000
Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?
01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000
Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000
Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it’s $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they’ll have open? Probably not a lot.
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000
Stuart Winchester: I think you’re seeing some smart reactions from some of the…
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000
Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there’s still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…
01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000
Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.
01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000
Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one’s surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000
Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it’s clear that their direct competitors are doing so. So let’s look at… I want to go…
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:33.000
Stuart Winchester: to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a minute, and I want to give you some of these.
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:41.000
Stuart Winchester: of these top lift ticket prices for the year. And, and I’ll tell you why I care about top lift ticket prices. And, and I know some of you say, well, it doesn’t matter.
01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:46.000
Stuart Winchester: I think it does matter, and I’ll tell you why.
01:09:46.000 --> 01:10:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Aspen’s peak lift ticket this year for any of the Four Mountains, or all of the Four Mountains, however you want to look at it, is $309. They used to keep pretty on par with Vail. Not anymore. Vail will hit $374.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Beaver Creek tops in the nation, probably the world $392 in some parts of the world that will get you on a helicopter. Like no joke. I hired a guide in Europe and this was several years ago, but we took one heli run and I think the day was, I don’t know, €250.
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then that also got us onto the resort for a guide for the rest of the day. So, so it, you know, 392, that’s, that’s something else. Uh, Steamboat will be 344. That’s an Alterra-owned mountain. Another Alterra flagship, Deer Valley, is 349. Vail flagship, Park City, is set to be 369. Again, these are peak day walk-up rates.
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:49.000
Stuart Winchester: So we’re seeing these continue to rise around Colorado. I don’t think that that will change. I wish it would, but I don’t think it will. They’re busy enough at those times. We’re actually seeing a little softening in Tahoe.
01:10:49.000 --> 01:11:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And Vale didn’t, as far as I know, really promote this hard, but Heavenly, their top lift ticket last year was 3 0 5. They’ve knocked that to 2 84 and a big drop at North Star 3 29 was their top lift ticket rate last year. And that’s down.
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:21.000
Stuart Winchester: So I think possibly we found the top of the market in Tahoe. In New England, Mount Snow, that’s Vail, $206. Killington, Independent, $225. Stratton, that’s Altera, $229. Okemo, $231.
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:33.000
Stuart Winchester: And Stowe, Vail’s flagship in New England, $272. So, you’re probably saying, Stu, why do you care? We know you don’t pay these prices. No one listening to this podcast pays those prices.
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:49.000
Stuart Winchester: But I don’t… and… and… trust me, the ski companies are frustrated that I talk about these prices. Why are you talking about a $392 lift ticket? There’s so many ways to get on Beaver Creek for cheaper. Well, because it’s a $392 lift ticket. And some people…
01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:54.000
Stuart Winchester: People don’t know that, and if they haven’t skied in.
01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:55.000
Stuart Winchester: A decade?
01:11:55.000 --> 01:12:09.000
Stuart Winchester: 15 years, and maybe their brother-in-law gets a place out in Vail, and suddenly they go up, and they say, okay, we’ll just get lift tickets when we get there, because that’s what they’ve done before.
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:18.000
Stuart Winchester: And maybe they like skiing, but maybe they stepped away from it because they had kids, or they moved to a place where there wasn’t a lot of snow. And this is their chance… this is the chance to recapture them.
01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:29.000
Stuart Winchester: And I thought Jason Bay said it really well yesterday about Camelback, and I know Camelback is not Vail Mountain, but, you know, he would rather create a… a lifelong customer.
01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:32.000
Stuart Winchester: than a one-time customer. And I think that what you see…
01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:38.000
Stuart Winchester: with these really mega-huge lift ticket prices. So that’s just for one day. So imagine…
01:12:38.000 --> 01:12:44.000
Stuart Winchester: you’re a family of four, and you get out to Beaver Creek, and you’re gonna ski for a week, and you find out it’s gonna be $8,000.
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:55.000
Stuart Winchester: for the 4U, it’s an idiot tax, or maybe an ignorance tax, right? I experienced this recently myself, because obviously I’m really tuned into skiing, but I rented a car in Ireland.
01:12:55.000 --> 01:13:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And I’ve rented cars all over the world, all over Europe, and I’ve always just said, oh, my credit card covers it.
01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:14.000
Stuart Winchester: So I got to Ireland, and they have their own set of rules, which I should have researched, but again, it’s an idiot tax, and they said, uh, sorry, we need proof.
01:13:14.000 --> 01:13:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Your credit card covers this.
01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Or, it’s gonna be… I think it was another 45 euros a day, and we were there for, you know, a good 10-12 days.
01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:32.000
Stuart Winchester: So, I paid. I paid the idiot tax, because I didn’t want to go through the process of proving the credit card, which I didn’t even know how to do that, or if I could reach them.
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I learned my lesson. I feel kind of dumb, and I think that’s what ultimately ends up happening at skiing. I’ll never forget this experience I had at Steamboat in 2020. This was right before the shutdowns.
01:13:47.000 --> 01:14:02.000
Stuart Winchester: And I went into the ticket office. It’s right at the base of the gondola. Well, I don’t know if they’ve moved it around with all the stuff they’ve done, but it was at the base of the original gondola. I haven’t been back since Wild Blue was put in, but there was a ticket office right there, and I walked in, and.
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Alpine slide tickets, because she just loves the Alpine slides, and we were done skiing for the day, and that stayed open a little bit later, and there was a big ticket board up.
01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:22.000
Stuart Winchester: and it gave you the prices for all of the lift tickets for one day, two day, three… and at the time, I mean, this seems quaint now, they were $200 and whatever dollars, so it was over $200.
01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:30.000
Stuart Winchester: And the… I’ve never seen a sadder line in my life. Like, the people just looked bereft. They just looked like…
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:45.000
Stuart Winchester: why are we doing this? You could tell that they were somehow thrust into this situation, and they looked like dead people walking, and they looked like people who were probably going to vacation in the Florida Keys the following year, because they.
01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.000
Stuart Winchester: See those lift ticket prices, and if there’s no…
01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.000
Stuart Winchester: immediate notification that there’s a better way to do it. If there’s no way to buy the bigger pass.
01:14:55.000 --> 01:15:11.000
Stuart Winchester: I love Vail’s Turn Your Ticket program. I love that they’re reemphasizing it. I don’t think Icon has anything like that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it turns into a one time very frustrated experience. And, you know, any marketer will tell you people talk about their bad experiences.
01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:18.000
Stuart Winchester: much more than their good experiences. So I think the lift ticket market is out of control.
01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:33.000
Stuart Winchester: I hope that there is a market correction happening. I don’t have enough confidence to say that right now, but I can say that, unlike in some of the previous years, there are deals out there, even in the heart of ski country.
01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:35.000
Stuart Winchester: In Summit County.
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:53.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, this podcast is brought to you today by Profile Search. A lot of you come to this podcast to hear from the best minds in skiing. But what if you want to find one of these great leaders for your own mountain team? Well, you should call Profile Search International, the ski industry talent acquisition experts.
01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:59.000
Stuart Winchester: The only executive search and recruitment firm in the world that is 100% focused on the ski industry.
01:16:00.000 --> 01:16:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Profile searches use their intimate understanding of skiing and related industries and of available candidates worldwide to place hundreds of transformational leaders at the best and most progressive ski areas over the past 30 years.
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Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note at skiing at substack.com. My email is skiing at substack.com.
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Might go to spam, I might miss it, but I will try to check my spam folder, and connect you directly with this expert team.
01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:41.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, this is where I would normally…
01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:54.000
Stuart Winchester: look at feedback from readers on yesterday’s podcast, but I put it out really late, so I don’t know how much feedback I’m gonna have, because sometimes these interviews are just in the evening, so…
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Let’s see if there’s any comments. There must be a better way to get to the comments. Okay.
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, this is from Gustav, longtime paid subscriber. I love that Camelback is pushing their season length. Every region or sub region needs a place like that for the ski community to congregate in the spring. I, I totally agree. And it’s great that the Mid-Atlantic.
01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Has that and they’re being aggressive about it. Camelback has a little elevation to help them out.
01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:35.000
Stuart Winchester: In the Midwest, you see Lutzen and Granite Peak will sometimes operate into May, but Boyne Mountain has really been pushing it. They sometimes have a competition with, uh, with Mount Bohemia, which has no snow making, which is funny ‘cause Boyne has like the best snow making and to see who can close the latest.
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, up in New England, you have Black Mountain, improbably has come up in New Hampshire, and Mogensen has been on the podcast recently, and even though it faces south and has a low elevation, he’s been keeping Black Mountain open into May for the past couple of years, and of course.
01:17:50.000 --> 01:18:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, Killington, Sugarbush, and Jay Peak always stay open pretty late in Vermont, and uh… and Jay Peak’s been pushing it the last couple years into mid… mid-May, and… and Killington will go to June when they can.
01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, which I don’t think they did this year. Uh, anyway, then out west, you, you have the obvious players. You have A-Basin, you have Snowbird, you have Mammoth, you have Palisades Tahoe, uh, you sometimes get Crystal up in, up in, uh, Washington.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:26.000
Stuart Winchester: And Bachelor will go late in the ski areas in Mount Hood. Of course, not a lot of good late operators. You know who needs a late operator?
01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:31.000
Stuart Winchester: is, like, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming.
01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:39.000
Stuart Winchester: I know that Wyoming has that Beartooth Basin ski area that opens, but am I missing any? Because I don’t think anyone goes for May.
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And Big Sky told me a few years ago they were gonna start trying to go for May, but I… have not seen them do that yet.
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Anyway, this is getting too long, and my editor is going to scold me severely. So, I am going to wrap up the show for today.
01:18:56.000 --> 01:19:11.000
Stuart Winchester: The next show will be tomorrow, it will be the Ask Me Anything, so if you’ve not gotten your questions in yet, please get them over to me. If you are a paid subscriber, that is who I’m reading the questions from. And I’ve got some pretty good questions so far, but I wouldn’t mind a couple more.
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:17.000
Stuart Winchester: For more content to get all of the Storm’s updates, reading, writing, podcasts.
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:32.000
Stuart Winchester: as soon as they’re out, please go to StormSkiing.com, subscribe to the Storm Skiing newsletter, and the very best way to support independent ski journalism is to upgrade to a paid subscription at StormSkiing.com, which will give you the ability to interact with this podcast, and…
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Stuart Winchester: Makes your Michigan pop a little more.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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Stuart Winchester: Yes.
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Stuart Winchester: Well, I appreciate you, uh, breaking the rules.
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Stuart Winchester: for me, Tim. It’s, uh, I think, I think so far, the video’s gotten pretty good reaction. Let me, uh, make sure my transcript is back on. Okay, started the transcript. Okay, good. Gotta set up all my systems.
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:38.000
Pete Meyer: Okay.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.000
Pete Meyer: Okay.
00:21:51.000 --> 00:22:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Um, and I’m recording this a little different than the old style, so I’m going in one continuous stream now, so I’ll actually do the show intro, and then I’ll introduce you guys, and then we’ll get into it.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.000
Pete Meyer: Okay.
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.000
Stuart Winchester: Let me start the recording.
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Stuart Winchester: All right. I think I didn’t mess anything up. We’ll see.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: All right.
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Welcome to the storm. I’m your host, Stuart Winchester. Today is Thursday, September 17th, 2026, and we are going to mix things up a little bit today. Instead of starting with the takes, we are starting with the guests, and I have some great guests today.
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Stuart Winchester: They are the general managers of Cabrifay Peaks, Michigan, with over 200 acres of terrain served by 4 chairlifts across 3 peaks, with a 485-foot vertical drop.
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Stuart Winchester: Cabar Fay is one of the largest ski areas in Michigan’s Lower Penins.
00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:49.000
Stuart Winchester: The ski area averaged 120 inches of lake effect snowfall per winter.
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Stuart Winchester: Their family has operated Cabaret since 1980. They are co-general managers, with Tim Meyer on the right, handling everything on the mountain, and Pete Meyer on the left, taking care of everything off. Tim and Pete, welcome to the storm. I’m always hyped to talk Cabaret. How are you guys doing today?
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Pete Meyer: Good. We’re doing awesome. Thanks for having us. Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah, and trigger warning for any Sparties or Buckeyes out there who want to go to the video version on stormskiing.com or YouTube. Me and Tim are both proudly rocking our Wolverines gear. This is a shirt I wore to the maze out when Michigan blasted Oklahoma in the big house this past weekend. So we’re feeling.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Although I understand Tim’s also got a little Sparty, side loyalty.
00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:35.000
Pete Meyer: Yes, my children, both my sons are Spartans, so that’s…
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, as soon as my daughter got into college, I bought all the gear for her place. So, you know, there’s tons going on at Cabaret, and I want to start…
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.000
Pete Meyer: It.
00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:54.000
Stuart Winchester: with this coming expansion, and you, you announced this a while ago, and I’m gonna share my screen here so that everyone can see, uh, see this as we talk through it.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:13.000
Stuart Winchester: And this is where I am never quite as fast as I want to be. Uh, but… okay. So, here is the Cabra Fay trail map. This is the one I took off your website this morning, so it’s the most current that I have. Uh, and last time I talked to Tim in, I think, 2021, when you came on the podcast.
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, it…
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:31.000
Stuart Winchester: This East Peak triple chair was still still in a theory phase and you hadn’t built yet. Now that’s in place and we’ll talk about that in a minute and how that’s gone. But talk to us about the Green Mountain triple chair, what we’re getting and why you’re building it.
00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:34.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, so, um…
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:40.000
Pete Meyer: I’m going to start with why, because it’s kind of an interesting story, you know.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:51.000
Pete Meyer: we… when we put in the East Peak lift, we took out the shelter chairlift, the double. They started in almost the same place, but the shelter… the shelter lift.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.000
Pete Meyer: let off about halfway up the hill.
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Pete Meyer: And because we we have our dads before us and then and then we also have continued to develop the terrain.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:13.000
Pete Meyer: the terrain changes and the flow changes. And what happened over time, like, especially over the last.
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Pete Meyer: 25 years or so.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:23.000
Pete Meyer: we kept adding on to Smiling Irishman and making it wider and wider and wider, and it got busier and busier and busier, so…
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:29.000
Pete Meyer: The shelter chairlift was essentially letting off these new skiers.
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Pete Meyer: in the middle of flowing traffic. And…
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Pete Meyer: We thought when we put in the East Peak lift.
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:41.000
Pete Meyer: Now we’re gonna take these lower end skiers to the top.
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Pete Meyer: we’re going to give them a longer run, and the new part we’re giving them is actually the easier half. They’re already negotiating the tougher half, the steeper half, and the narrower half. If we add the upper half, it’s easier, it’s wider, it should be fine.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:25:55.000 --> 00:26:06.000
Pete Meyer: And that’s what we thought. And so we put it in and then but then what we found and this is the this is the piece that you learn as you go.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Pete Meyer: is…
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:15.000
Pete Meyer: The new skiers accepted being let off at the lower level, and having to merge into traffic, because.
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:32.000
Pete Meyer: They didn’t really know any different and that it was the psychological factor. Well, I’m only halfway up the mountain. I can, I can do this. When we took them up to the top, you know, that East Peak lift actually feels like a out, it almost feels like an out West lift. It has.
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:43.000
Pete Meyer: like, three rises, you know? So you ride… you go up over a break, and then you… and then you go again for a while, and then up over another break, and then you’re coming into the top, and you… you know, you’re above…
00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.000
Pete Meyer: Tree line, basically, and you can see the horizon, and it just…
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.000
Pete Meyer: would kind of psych out that new skier, you know, they would just, they would.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:55.000
Pete Meyer: They’d get up there and kind of freeze and panic, and…
00:26:55.000 --> 00:27:06.000
Pete Meyer: say, there’s no way I’m gonna go down, you know, I’m not gonna go down that hill. And, uh, so we found our ski patrol having to give a lot of lessons just to get people down the hill, and…
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:13.000
Pete Meyer: And, um, and so we, we just, we kind of knew that we had a, you know, a little bit of an issue that we had to work through.
00:27:13.000 --> 00:27:21.000
Pete Meyer: And so Pete and I would be talking, you know, and I would say, I think I have it all figured out, you know, I’m saying, um…
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:34.000
Pete Meyer: we just need to give them… make sure that all the… every single new skier gets a lesson, and we get them ready to… you know, we get them ready to go. And a lot of the… a lot of this is the school groups, you know, the different groups, and we do offer lessons.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:40.000
Pete Meyer: to everybody, but sometimes they don’t take them, and, you know, they slide, they slide through, and…
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:42.000
Pete Meyer: And so.
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:50.000
Pete Meyer: Pete and I were having a meeting on Green Mountain with our ski patrol director, Katie, and Dennis, one of our top instructors.
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:59.000
Pete Meyer: And we think we have it all figured out. You know, we’re just we just need to put them through a lesson and then and then problem solved.
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.000
Pete Meyer: And…
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:12.000
Pete Meyer: And Dennis, our ski instructor, was like, almost grabbed right onto my jacket. He’s like, you don’t understand. I can’t get them ready for East Peak on this.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:23.000
Pete Meyer: we need something in between, and I… and… and so it’s like, oh, oh, well, what do you need, Dennis? And he pointed up at the Green Mountain, and he said, we need that.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:41.000
Pete Meyer: And I… I said, well, I think we have a plan for that on a cocktail napkin somewhere. We could go look at that again. So basically, what… what hap… what it was is we… we had always had this. We… we actually had lift lines staked out, and we hadn’t been looking at doing this. We just thought it would be…
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:51.000
Pete Meyer: the last thing that we do. We thought we would… we would continue to develop into the… into the backcountry area, and then do the Green Mountain expansion later.
00:28:51.000 --> 00:29:06.000
Pete Meyer: But what the… what the customer told us was, no, you need the Green Mountain expansion now. So that’s the why and the how, that all of a sudden that thing kind of appeared out of nowhere, and why it was a two…
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:14.000
Pete Meyer: why it’s a two-year construction, because there’s nothing over there. No services. Um, so we’ve had… we had to…
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.000
Pete Meyer: You know, we had to do the final planning kind of fast.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Pete Meyer: so we wanted to take 2 years to do it. Um, and so what are you getting? You’re getting about 135 vertical feet, a brand new Doppelmayr triple.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:38.000
Pete Meyer: uh, that’s just like East Peak and just like Vista, so it’s gonna show this, you know, it’s gonna take the new skier, um.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:43.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, and get them going on a lift that’s similar to what we have throughout the area.
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:55.000
Pete Meyer: it runs a little bit slower, has a bigger chair spacing, so it’s going to be a little bit easier to load and unload. And when it’s all built out, we should have 4 or 5.
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.000
Pete Meyer: really, uh, easy trails, but with character. I mean, these aren’t just…
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:14.000
Pete Meyer: you know, a football field at 10 degrees that doesn’t have any character. These are, you know, tree-lined, um, interesting slopes. Uh, the lift itself actually goes through the woods.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:20.000
Pete Meyer: and part of the way, and it’s just a really neat development. So we think that.
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:32.000
Pete Meyer: You know, even though it’s not big vertical, it lifts about a thousand feet long. The terrain has really good character and we think it’s going to be really popular.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ve always loved that about Cabaret. My favorite section of Cabaret for the folks who are watching is this sort of lower section where all the trails split off. And I’ve always found it a little confusing and fun. And I like confusing. I like it. I feel like it makes ski areas feel bigger than they are.
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:59.000
Stuart Winchester: I want to zoom out a little bit and connect this expansion to some larger ski industry narratives, because the narrative that won’t die is that the big corporate consolidation and big passes are killing the independents.
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Stuart Winchester: here I’m looking at Cabra Fay, family-owned for the last 46 years, and in 2016, you put in a brand new triple chair right here on North Peak. In 2022, you put in the brand new East Peak triple chair, and then you’re putting in this brand new Green Mountain triple chair next year, at least that’s the plan. I mean…
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:31.000
Stuart Winchester: So you’re affording three new chairlifts. Uh, you know, Monarch was willing to tell me out in Colorado. Yeah, we, and we paid cash for them. I don’t know if you, if you have, you know, theories on debt. I know a lot of scare operators like Platykill in New York, like to stay out of debt, but, but how did Cab.
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Stuart Winchester: How is Calgary managing all these capital upgrades, and what does it say, do you think, about independents competing in 2026?
00:31:41.000 --> 00:32:05.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, I don’t have access to the checkbook, so you have to let me answer that one. No, that’s a great question, Stu. And Tim kind of hit on this on his first podcast with you, but when Tim and I got moved back here in 2001, we had what I call like soul crushing debt. You know, it was just crippling, like every dollar we made had to go and service the debt.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, we didn’t have…
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:18.000
Pete Meyer: really any money to even make capital improvements or to do much of anything. So our our main mission early on was try to try to get out of debt and get out of that hole.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:35.000
Pete Meyer: And, you know, our dad’s done a nice job developing and building, and they got it out of bankruptcy. So when you get something out of bankruptcy, they’ve already cut every corner and done all kinds of deferred maintenance, pushed it all off. So we had quite a bit to deal with, and it was a long…
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.000
Pete Meyer: Um…
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:46.000
Pete Meyer: the long slugfest. Tim and I call those the dark days, you know, about 10 years of just really grinding. And then, finally, right, you know.
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:58.000
Pete Meyer: about 2015, we were able to, uh, to get out of debt, and then… and then we started to, um, really put capital back into it, and that’s why we decided on… on…
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:02.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, putting in some new chairlifts, and yes, we have not gone back into debt since.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:14.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s fantastic, and as you think to the future, okay, you have this North Peak quad chair, built in, I think, 92, and then you have the South Peak triple, which I think early 80s lift, it’s a riblet, which…
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:29.000
Stuart Winchester: As you know, is out of business now. I think this one’s a SeaTac. So, I don’t know if when, you know, you give a really good summary, Tim, of how East Peak changed traffic around the mountain. Uh, I, I’ve seen a, there’s a ton of comments. I was just scrolling through, through Lyft blog for the folks watching.
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:41.000
Stuart Winchester: to show Peter’s excellent pictures of that lift. And the Cabaret page on there has a ton of comments, and I’m sure you’ve seen them. So, there’s a lot of wondering, it seems, among skiers.
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Why the quad is still here, because it…
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:57.000
Stuart Winchester: they don’t seem to think it runs a lot, and they think the triple does the job. Is there any thought of moving the quad, or do you really need 7 seats here? Or, just thinking long-term, what does the lift distribution look like across Cabaret Fay as you look at this map?
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:13.000
Pete Meyer: Well, I think that we do need the quad on the busiest days, right? Otherwise, the reason we put the Vista Triple in there is the lines on the quad used to get so long. And it was like, that’s the artery. I mean, you know, more people.
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.000
Pete Meyer: go through the North Peak complex.
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:34.000
Pete Meyer: every day than than the others, you know, because it’s the middle. And so it’s you go through there on your way to and from South Peak, and a lot of people just ski there because it’s really really good inter advanced, intermediate and intermediate type terrain, and even some advanced beginner terrain. So it.
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:43.000
Pete Meyer: It services a wide range of abilities. So I think you want to have the two lifts.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:45.000
Pete Meyer: Um…
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:58.000
Pete Meyer: I think ultimately, though, we want to have more places for people to go, more pods of skiing, so that actually you do run the quad less and less, but you have it there so that on the really busy days.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:14.000
Pete Meyer: you can turn it on and have, you know, a lift that doesn’t have a line that somebody can sit on and ride up. But, um, I don’t know if that answers the question. Yeah, right now, Stu, we run it 3 days a week, Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays, the busier days, and so…
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, we don’t run it, uh, Monday through Thursday, just because it’s a redundant lift, and we don’t need the uphill capacity, um, is… is why people say it’s not running some of the time.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I guess what I was getting at is, is there a world where you move the quad over here to serve some of this backcountry terrain and in the top of Green Mountain? As it’s, as there’s kind of open space on the trail map and, and knowing Gary Milken, how he designs maps, he sometimes leaves that space.
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:57.000
Stuart Winchester: for expansion. So, so what’s the thought around, you know, and you alluded to it earlier when you were thinking about a lift for backcountry, and Tim, you had mentioned even maybe reviving those halls. I don’t know if that’s still a possibility. I don’t know if they’re still sitting at the bottom of the mountain here, but what’s the thought on.
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:02.000
Stuart Winchester: potential expansion over in this area or lifts in this area long term.
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:17.000
Pete Meyer: I think that would be the next frontier. So, somewhere in the bottom… because you’ve skied here, Stu, you know if you go through the backcountry, you run out of gas, and then you have… and then you have to walk, and that’s why we call it backcountry, because it’s a…
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:27.000
Pete Meyer: Because it’s a tearful experience for many people coming out of there in the flats. And so somewhere down in that basin.
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:40.000
Pete Meyer: there could, there could be a lift someday that goes up to east of the top of East Peak. And Stu, what Tim had alluded to earlier in his first answer is that that was our original plan, so that would have been.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, that was the plan to be our next chairlift, was to service that area. But due to the reaction and the response of our skiers, you know, we deviated and focused on… and moved to Green Mountain. Um, and, you know, one thing we found is that transition from the magic carpet, right there on the trail map, you can see, to the East Peak chair.
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:15.000
Pete Meyer: was just too much for most of our skiers. And not only were we not doing Cabaret any favors, but we’re not doing the industry any favors. You know, it’s just, it was asking them to do too much, too big of a, make too much of a jump. So by putting in this East Peak.
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:30.000
Pete Meyer: chair, and then we’ll have all green runs that’ll all be, um, varying degrees of difficulty of a green run, but all of them will be in between the Magic Carpet slope and the Smiling Irishman slope, so it’ll be a really nice.
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:43.000
Pete Meyer: transition, and quite frankly, we think a lot of school groups and a lot of skiers are going to come out, um, and never get off that chair, and stay on Green Mountain all day, and have a wildly successful day, and want to return, um, to not only Cabaret Fay, but to other ski.
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:48.000
Stuart Winchester: I love it, and I can confidently say, because I ski all over, uh, that Cabaret is now…
00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.000
Stuart Winchester: And, and especially once you put in this new lift, it’s one of the most modern up to date ski areas in the entire region. And, and that wasn’t always true. When I first skied at Cabaret in the nineties, it was a lot of haul double chairs. I mean, these, these guys were over here, the, the quad and the, and the triple, but.
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:11.000
Stuart Winchester: that, that throwback feel to it. And I know, Tim, when you were on last time, uh, you, you talked, you lamented a little bit.
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:23.000
Stuart Winchester: getting rid of the last rope toe for the carpet, and just sort of the emotion of it, even though you knew it was logically the right thing. What if you could bring back a little throwback by putting a little rope toe right here to bring people out of the backcountry?
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000
Pete Meyer: Well, you know, it’s funny, I…
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:36.000
Pete Meyer: I was kind of slow to warm up to getting rid of that rope toe. I guess, you know, I always had that old school…
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:52.000
Pete Meyer: you know, I learned on a rope toe, my kids learned on a rope toe, your kids are going to learn on a rope toe, which is just backwards thinking, right, for a for a ski area manager to have that kind of thought process. I’m not sure. I know where you’re going. I mean, no one knows what the future holds.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:09.000
Pete Meyer: I do see ski areas having a lot of success with train parks with fast tows that service them. Again, another cocktail napkin plan that we have that we’re not going to get into in this interview is something like that on our property down the road.
00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:16.000
Pete Meyer: Um, so there, you know, I could see that kind of a thing, but, um…
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:26.000
Pete Meyer: And… but I think… I don’t know if we would ever want to put a surface tow out of the backcountry area unless, for some reason, we weren’t going to lift serve it.
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Got it.
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Pete Meyer: But, you know, I guess, you know, no one knows for sure.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:37.000
Pete Meyer: Um, but I wanna… I wanna back up on the Green Mountain expansion a little bit, if… if you’ll let me.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Sure.
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, do it. Let’s do it.
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Pete Meyer: When we were at the Midwest, uh, show this year, there was a, there was a fireside chat, and we were talking about.
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:54.000
Pete Meyer: We’re talking about, you know, turning first-time skiers into second-time skiers, and making the experience the best it can be.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:06.000
Pete Meyer: And so that we have… we have success in that arena. And the Green Mountain… the Green Mountain is… is really a missing piece, because you’re looking at our trail map, and you see how the parking lot is laid out.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.000
Pete Meyer: Um, so if you’re, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible for somebody who’s never skied before.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:17.000
Pete Meyer: You can park on pavement right in front of our ticket office.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:24.000
Pete Meyer: Get out of your car, walk a short distance on heated sidewalks to the ticket office.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:36.000
Pete Meyer: Get… pay for everything you need. Pay for your skis, pay for your ticket, pay for your rentals, pay for your lesson, and then walk up to the… walk up to the, um…
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:37.000
Pete Meyer: Rental.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:52.000
Pete Meyer: In your, in your regular boots, so it’s easy walking, go inside, take your stuff off, take your boots off, get your boots, get your skis and come and then, and then secure your lesson at the end and then walk out the door.
00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:09.000
Pete Meyer: And you’re 30, you know, you’re 30 feet from where the ski school meets and you’re right at the bottom of the conveyor. So it’s really easy to start out and we can get you going on the conveyor. We can virtually get anybody that can stand up on skis or snowboard up to the top.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.000
Pete Meyer: And then put, you know, all their energy into getting them down the hill.
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:28.000
Pete Meyer: And then once you outgrow that, you just get off the conveyor and you ski down a little slope right onto the East Peak lift. Or, I’m sorry, onto the Green Mountain lift. So now you’re right there, and you have this real easy area.
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:37.000
Pete Meyer: to learn to ski, and then when you, when you’re ready, you just ski down, just ski down the hill to the east peak lift. So the, the flow.
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.000
Pete Meyer: for that never ever in the in the ah, the the.
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:51.000
Pete Meyer: possibility of getting them to come a second and third and fourth time is really real, and I think… I think we’re in, like, a new stratosphere for getting…
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:59.000
Pete Meyer: you know, getting people, uh, skiing. And then as it flows, you know, the next step, the next place to ski is East Peak.
00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:10.000
Pete Meyer: And then as you get a little more daring, you work your way into the North Peak complex, and then eventually over to South Peak. So the flow is really natural, and I think it’s going to work out extremely well.
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like a mini, uh, Copper Mountain. I know you’re a Winter Park guy, but it, you know, the, the, the viability… You know what, the exciting thing, I think, for skiers who are not novices, who know Cabaret Faye well.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:38.000
Stuart Winchester: starts to creep back into old Caber Fay. And, and when we’ve talked a while ago, Tim, I, I didn’t have a good perspective, but some new maps have popped up on ski map.org, which is my go to for old trail maps. And this one I think shows the old terrain really well. So here’s the road looping around, here’s the parking lot.
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And then here’s all the terrain. And so I… Google Earth also makes it really easy. So as I go here…
00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:02.000
Stuart Winchester: I am, for those who are watching, I am zooming in on… so this is what you were talking about, you kind of just park on pavement, you get out here, for those watching on YouTube or StormSkiing.com, the carpet’s right around here, and then this will be green, is that right?
00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:07.000
Pete Meyer: No, if you go, if you, if you go back to that old, old trail map, like you can see right to there, there’s a.
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:14.000
Pete Meyer: A rope toe — there’s two rope toes right there, right up that line, top of that peak. There was two rope toes.
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Right there? Okay.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, heading up that way, and another rope tow coming out at 90 degrees from… from the top.
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Pete Meyer: And that shack still is up there to this day. It’s a two-story tow shack where we had three different rope tows coming in. So it’s going to come right up to the top of that. And that area was always called practice area. That was the old name of it. So if you look at old trail maps, you’ll see that word practice area.
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:24.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s cool.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:41.000
Pete Meyer: It’s a great name for a learn to ski area.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, here’s another map, the 1971 map has it as practice area. Okay, so I was assuming that you were digging that up, but I guess you’re taking earth from there for the other… is that where you took it for East Peak? Is that what this big sandpit is?
00:43:53.000 --> 00:44:07.000
Pete Meyer: Oh, that’s more of the West Ridge area out into that area. So we’re actually off to the left. It’s all still green. Up into there, yeah, so it’ll be a nice natural hilltop with big mature trees, tree line runs. It’s gonna be really, it’s gonna be really nice.
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000
Stuart Winchester: So as you… so you can see, for those watching, this is old cab buffet. These are… this is all abandoned, right? I… do you still own this? I mean, it… because once you put the lift up here.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:37.000
Stuart Winchester: It seems like it could potentially open some of this backside terrain. I know people would love that. It also makes you very big. I don’t know if that’s on your radar as Cabaret continues to grow and succeed, but what are the thoughts on this really cool abandoned terrain that you have back here? And Tim, I know we talked about this a few years ago, but I also know that thoughts evolve over time.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:44.000
Pete Meyer: So we do still own all of that. So that area you’re looking at, we do own it.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Pete Meyer: I think that we don’t have any plans to go back into that area at this time, but you never know.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:04.000
Pete Meyer: Going back, though, a little bit, we don’t want to get too far into the weeds. Unless you want to get into the weeds, we can go. Um, I brought my machete, so we can…
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Stuart Winchester: I live in the weeds, man, that’s, uh, my…
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:22.000
Pete Meyer: we can do what we need to do. But when… way back, going way back to 1982, 83, when South Peak opened, you know, South Peak was redeveloped, all that… a lot of that terrain was still running back then. We were riding T-bars and rope tows on the North Ridge, and West Ridge was alive, and.
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:31.000
Pete Meyer: The practice area tow was still running. So I remember that stuff, you know, as a kid, all happening. And when South Peak was built.
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:43.000
Pete Meyer: it was so much bigger than all that, you know, vertical-wise. It was, like, twice, you know, twice the vertical, um, real snowmaking, real grooming.
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:56.000
Pete Meyer: people just abandoned the back… the back hills. They just went… they left that. They left that area, and they went to Salt Peak. And that’s really why it all closed, is people just stopped going back there. It just wasn’t as good. So…
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Or did they?
00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:00.000
Pete Meyer: I often think maybe it just is better to be a memory.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:05.000
Pete Meyer: But but who knows? You know, down the road it could be what it could be.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:16.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I think between opening the backcountry and that, uh, the Green Mountain expansion, I think you excited some folks. Alright, that, that’s, uh, that’s, that’s all really cool. I appreciate you taking me inside that. Let’s talk passes now, and I’m.
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.000
Stuart Winchester: the screen share here. So, uh…
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Cabrefe joined IndyPass as an inaugural member in 2019, and has been on that pass every season since, for the 2026-27 season. Cabrefe has, and I’m just laying this out for the listeners, uh, Cabrefe has departed the IndyPass and has joined.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:51.000
Stuart Winchester: The full icon pass, uh, on their two day tier, which is only on the full icon pass, not on the icon base, there’s no access, and there’s also holiday blackout, so the only mountains that are holiday blacked out on the full icon are the, the two day mountains, of which.
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Cabaret is now one. So, so talk us through.
00:46:55.000 --> 00:47:03.000
Stuart Winchester: your experience with IndiePass and the decision, ultimately, to leave that partnership and to join up with ICON.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:09.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, sure, Stu, we have a feeling this might be a topic of conversation today, so…
00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Pete Meyer: So we.
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:22.000
Pete Meyer: There’s a lot of layers to this answer, and this decision was not made quickly or lightly, and a lot of analysis and discussion went into it.
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:37.000
Pete Meyer: To be quite honest, we were… we’ve been frustrated with the IndyPass a little bit for a couple years, and we kind of… we kind of laid out a bunch of, um, the pros and cons list, and the cons list was a lot longer than the pros, and so we… we ultimately kind of came to this decision to exit, and um…
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:53.000
Pete Meyer: We’re going to talk about — I’ll talk about a couple of those reasons now. But before I do, I think it’s important to provide some history and some context with Cadbury and IndyPass. So as you mentioned, Indy launched in 2019. We were an early adopter. We had some great conversations with Doug Fish that summer.
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:10.000
Pete Meyer: Doug worked really hard to get this pass going. We really enjoyed our conversations. He kind of could answer the questions that nobody could answer. He knew things that nobody else knew. And I still remember to this day, I’m like, Doug, how do you know all this? And he’s like in his raspy voice.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000
Pete Meyer: I just know, you know, so it’s like, it was kind of cool. So we had confidence that, uh, that he could implement this pass and make it successful, um, because he knew what it took. So we…
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:26.000
Stuart Winchester: I’m sorry to interrupt. I may have been the first ever Cabaret Redemption on the Indie Pass since November 2019.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:25.000
Pete Meyer: You know what? That’s this.
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:30.000
Pete Meyer: It wasn’t, it was December 5th, 2019.
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay. It…
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Pete Meyer: So, I was gonna get into that in a little bit, but now I’ll hit on that. So then, um, in digging through all these redemptions, which I was gonna get into.
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, okay, go ahead.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Sorry, I spoiled it.
00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:56.000
Pete Meyer: And pouring this data, I was like, Stuart Winchester, you were redemption number one for us. I don’t know if you knew that. And I remember it to this day because I never heard your name. I never heard of your podcast. I don’t even know if you had it going then.
00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:42.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Wow, that’s cool.
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Yah.
00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:59.000
Stuart Winchester: It launched, uh, that October, so it was brand new. Mm-hmm.
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.000
Pete Meyer: That October? Okay.
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:14.000
Pete Meyer: So the… our… my office is right behind the ticket window, and the ticket teller… our office… the ticket manager wasn’t in there, so the ticket teller came and got me when he came to the window. I have this, uh, IndiePass, I don’t know what to do with it. So I was showing her how to…
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.000
Pete Meyer: redeem it in in Brooklyn.
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:43.000
Pete Meyer: New York pops up. Oh, I got to talk to this guy. I go, you mean that you drove all the way here just to ski at Cabra Faith in Brooklyn, New York? And you’re like, yeah, I did. And I thought, I’m like, this pass is awesome, right? It’s great, guys. But then we talked a little bit more and you said you had family in the area and we’re in the area for a while. So I was really high for a long time on the UniPass because of that. But I didn’t know it was you until I was digging through the data. I’m like, oh, that’s.
00:49:19.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so.
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, that’s cool.
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:58.000
Pete Meyer: That’s that’s so. So anyways, anyways, we’ll where was I? So okay, so then we were the first as part of that. Then we were the 1st ski resort in the Lower Peninsula to to commit to the to Indy Pass, and I’m not sure about.
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:46.000
Stuart Winchester: Love that.
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:01.000
Pete Meyer: Um, the UP, uh.
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Pete Meyer: But the only one in the Lower Peninsula. And so we knew at that time, well, this isn’t going to do anything unless we get a couple more ski resorts to join. So we had reached out to a few. And Pete Bigford was interested. And he was the CEO and president of Shanty Creek at the time.
00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:30.000
Pete Meyer: And Pete had said, yeah, we’ll do it, but we need a couple of downstate resorts to join as well. So then we reached out to Jamie at Swiss Valley, she said yes, and Doug at Cannonsburg, and he said yes. So that first year, we had four.
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.000
Pete Meyer: Um, resorts on the Indy Pass. And…
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:45.000
Pete Meyer: During that time he that 1st year he charged resorts a thousand dollars to get in. So we we had conversations. We’re like, well, let’s let’s try it. The worst we can do is be out a thousand dollars right? So we had these.
00:50:45.000 --> 00:51:00.000
Pete Meyer: 4 ski areas in, and we did… I think we did 44 redemptions that first year. It was… it was virtually nothing. I don’t even think it covered the… the $1,000. It might have come… but… but we liked the concept, it was neat, and the word got out, and then… and then Crystal Mountain joined, um, the next year.
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow. Okay.
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:06.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, and then, so we kind of hit a critical mass there, and then it was a really good pass, um.
00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:16.000
Pete Meyer: for a long time, for a while, for several years. And one thing that Doug had said, and during that first year, I think in 2019, they had about 50.
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:32.000
Pete Meyer: ski resorts on the pass, if I remember. And he said, I really hope to get it to 80 to maybe 100 passes. Um, and you as an early adopter, um, Cabaret will have say who gets in, in, in your particular region, because I really want to keep it, do just a couple ski resorts per region.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.000
Pete Meyer: not to not to oversaturate the market. Like, yeah, great. This sounds sounds really good.
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Pete Meyer: So then as we go on, um…
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:50.000
Pete Meyer: he sells the pass to, uh, Entebani and Eric. Um, and great for Doug, we’re happy for Doug, he worked really hard to make that pass, good for him for selling it. Um, can’t fault him.
00:51:50.000 --> 00:52:05.000
Pete Meyer: Um, and then we like to say, like, Eric, Eric took the pass and put it on steroids. You know, it’s just, he, he’s, he’s done a wonderful job with it. You know, he’s obviously very, very intelligent, very successful, running three different businesses, um, um, and doing well at all of them.
00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.000
Pete Meyer: But he’s blown it up. He just had a different mission.
00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.000
Pete Meyer: than than Doug had. Right? So what did that evolve into?
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.000
Stuart Winchester: Blowing it up, you mean making bigger, right?
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:22.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, making it bigger. Like, Doug was gonna keep it small and couple to each region, and we were gonna have an input on, you know.
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Pete Meyer: to try to prevent it from being oversaturated. So, I know the Midwest has a lot of ski areas on the pass, but, like, our world is Michigan and our, more specifically, northern Michigan.
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000
Pete Meyer: So it got down to where we had 6.
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000
Pete Meyer: um, ski resorts within a 60-mile radius in northern Michigan, right? So if you drop a pin, you can drive within, within 60 miles, you can get to six resorts on it. Um, that density just became too much for us, because that’s 12 visits, right? If a skier buys an Andy Pass, they can ski 12 times, two at each place. It’s great for them, they get a lot of.
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:52:57.000 --> 00:53:12.000
Pete Meyer: Um, the problem is, is what we’re seeing, and we’re watching the numbers every year, um, and it was easy to do because there’s not a ton of redemptions, but how many of those people were former Passovers, right? And that percentage kept rising every year.
00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:12.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmm.
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Pete Meyer: So what it became and evolved into is just a direct competitor of our own season pass product. And that’s ultimately reason number one why we — it just oversaturated.
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.000
Pete Meyer: And.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:27.000
Stuart Winchester: So, go ahead.
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Pete Meyer: And, you know, so…
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:34.000
Pete Meyer: I and I think the the Indy Pass really for a lot of ski resorts.
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:51.000
Pete Meyer: doesn’t move the needle a ton, um, financially. Uh, for… for us, it really didn’t, and I felt like we were… did a reasonable number of redemptions, so we could… we could take it… take it or leave it. It doesn’t have a big impact. It affects the customer more. Like, that decision was hard, the person who bought it in the past.
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:56.000
Pete Meyer: Um, but I think Eric’s a stand-up guy. He’ll let anybody who…
00:53:56.000 --> 00:54:07.000
Pete Meyer: who bought an E-Pass, and their favorite resort is not on that, they’ll give a refund to anybody who wants one. So the Cabaret listeners know that, and I think that’s nice of him to do. Also, for those.
00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:19.000
Pete Meyer: um, Cabaret, uh, listeners who bought an Indy add-on. He’ll honor that for this year, from what I understand. So, it’s a couple of really good things that he’s doing there, so we’re thankful, thankful for that. But, um.
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:28.000
Pete Meyer: through conversations, and we just decided it was time to get out. So that’s reason number one. I got a couple more reasons if you’ve got time.
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, thank you.
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Well, let’s linger on that for a second. I mean, for me, it just comes down to good old-fashioned free market competition, right? Where there’s another pass available that is looking for smaller mountains like Caber Fay. It also signed mountains like Buck Hill and.
00:54:41.000 --> 00:54:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and uh… Wild Mountain over in Minnesota, just small areas near populations that are popular. I saw you catching some heat in comments to me, you know, on my platforms and social media, because you go from the Indy Pass, which maxed out at $419.
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:16.000
Stuart Winchester: to the full Icon, which is $1,449 right now, and I know you can upgrade and buy a discounted Icon session pass, but I don’t want to overstate it. What’s the reaction been like from your pass holders, and how have you handled that?
00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:24.000
Stuart Winchester: The fact that you’re no longer available on the cheap discounted pass, multi-mountain pass, but you are available on the very expensive one.
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:27.000
Pete Meyer: Great question, great question, because we’ve been getting…
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:42.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, we’ve been getting both, uh, good and, and bad feedback from it. So, what, what it comes down to is the, is the decision to, to, uh, leave Indy and, and join OCCON. Those, those decisions were, were mutually exclusive. Like, like, we had made the decision to.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:52.000
Pete Meyer: to leave Indy, um, before we even started to Icon. And we had a lot of conversations of, hey, let’s just… let’s just be… let’s just be independent and not on any… any, uh…
00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Pete Meyer: Multi resort pass, you know, there’s a lot of really successful and really nice ski resorts that have that model, like Perfect North Slopes, Cascade in Wisconsin. We always go out and ski somewhere every spring and I went out to the Tahoe area this year and skied at Mount Rose, you know, that place is.
00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Pete Meyer: that place is phenomenal. They’re not on any, any, um, any pants. And, um, it was neat to ski there, and just see they had a similar vibe and feel that, um, Cabaret had, right?
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Right. That’s right.
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:23.000
Pete Meyer: So quite a bit more, quite a bit more. Yeah, yeah.
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.000
Stuart Winchester: Just a little more elevation.
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000
Stuart Winchester: They’re at, like, 9,000 feet.
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:27.000
Pete Meyer: Absolutely, but it was great terrain. So.
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:26.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.000
Pete Meyer: After we left the Indy Pass.
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Pete Meyer: Then we, um…
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:46.000
Pete Meyer: Started talking to the folks at ICON, and I want to give a shout out to Aaron Keene and Caitlin Windauer, those girls are really sharp and would answer all the questions. It kind of reminded me of the early DuckFish days where they were all knowing and knew a lot of answers to everything.
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:53.000
Pete Meyer: We talked to them for a long time. We weren’t in any rush to make a decision to go down this road.
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:57.000
Pete Meyer: And you know what ultimately decided for us is.
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:10.000
Pete Meyer: We want to do what’s best for our core customer, and our core customer is our season pass holder, okay? And this IndyPass or this IconPass brought on this reciprocal benefit of a three-day.
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:27.000
Pete Meyer: 3 day session pass you can get for 50% off. Right? And that adds a lot of value. To our pass holders. And so we’ve been hit as much as the negativity that you’ve seen online for leaving any pass, we’ve been getting messages from our pass holders saying, hey, thank you for this benefit. This is great.
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:13.000
Stuart Winchester: It’s.
00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, three day. Yeah. Okay.
00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:43.000
Pete Meyer: I’m gonna use it. I’m gonna take a trip. And then we’ve known we’ve gone out west together and 3 days of skiing is plenty. Like we like to ski bell to bell and it’s you’re by that 3rd day you’re waking up and you’re like you can’t even move your legs for you know we’re so so we think it’s a nice.
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, yeah.
00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:41.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:55.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, you can ski locally here, you can head up in, um, hit up, hit up both Boyne Mountain and Boyne Highlands, or drive over to, uh, Blue Mountain, Ontario, so you don’t have to get in a plane. So it’s.
00:57:55.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Pete Meyer: Uh, of our pass holders. Cause we know, we know, Stuart, that nobody’s going to buy a full icon pass for two days at Cabaret. We, we know that that wasn’t even the, like Pete said, we’re, we do like our independence and, and.
00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Right.
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:25.000
Pete Meyer: And we like to create these partnerships that are good for our core customers. The people that commit to us, we’re going to give you the best we can. And so, you know, that that three day session pass is just it’s it’s.
00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:29.000
Pete Meyer: It’s a it’s a great benefit for our core customers.
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s like you take a trip to Steamboat, or Palisades Tahoe, or a lot of the mountains that are on that. So, you know, it all makes sense, and I like the, you know, Boyne, Cabaret, sort of on one team, and then you have Nubs, and Crystal, and Treetops, and Shani on the other. I think that’s good for skiers, it’s good for.
00:58:47.000 --> 00:59:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, two more, two more things I wanna talk about and then we’ll get out of here. Uh, I, I really wanna talk about your season pass. $299 unlimited. I think it was even a little cheaper for early birds, but that’s what it is right now. Uh, 219 for weekday, 129 for Sunday. That, that’s an awesome, awesome deal.
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:18.000
Stuart Winchester: by any measure. I noticed you no longer have the Saturday-Sunday pass, and I think it’s been a couple years, and it also… Saturday lift tickets are more than Sunday, so it seems as though, from my point of view, you’re really trying to manage the experience on Saturday. So, talk about your season pass suite.
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:27.000
Stuart Winchester: And how that relates to your mountain management as far as making sure when people show up, they have a good experience.
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:42.000
Pete Meyer: No, you’re exactly right. You hit the nail on the head right there. We’re trying to preserve the Saturday experience. That’s the day everybody wants to ski. So if you’re going to be on a pass and ski at Calgary on a pass, you got to have the seven-day week pass.
00:59:42.000 --> 01:00:00.000
Pete Meyer: And we wanted to protect that experience and not get overcrowded, not get overrun, and that’s one of the main reasons that we got rid of the weekend pass. The weekend pass, we roll out, it was a $99 weekend pass in 2007 when we launched that, and that thing went all the way till.
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:14.000
Pete Meyer: I think 2000 or 2001, we had that, so we had that for a long time, and that brought a lot of skiers here and exposed us as we continued to get better, and they saw the resort that we had, and all the work that Tim was doing on the hill.
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:21.000
Pete Meyer: And then that just evolved into trying to manage the volume levels on Saturdays.
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s a, it’s, it’s a great deal. And, uh, you know, even, even as it’s risen past 99, I mean, you know, 299, there’s, there’s a lot of resorts in the West that are charging more than that for a day this year. Beaver Creek’s topping out at 392. So I love it. Okay. The last thing I want to.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:48.000
Stuart Winchester: This one’s a little personal, and I know I talked to you about this, uh, it was about 4 years ago, Tim or Pete, I forget, it was maybe both of you I was talking to. So I want to talk about this Trail Starkey.
01:00:48.000 --> 01:01:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, I knew Dick Starkey. I’m friends with his daughter Crystal from way back. We went to school together. Uh, and, and I met him and I, I was always just remember being very impressed by him. He had a really good presence. Uh, he was, he was very fit and active and, and did a lot of things.
01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Um, I didn’t know him super well, but I met him a few times, and… and I… I just want to talk about, you know, he passed.
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:25.000
Stuart Winchester: Four or five years ago now, and I noticed this trail and, and I said, oh, is that, is that named after Dick? And, and you said it was. So, uh, can, can you talk about the Starkey trail? Talk about Dick Starkey and, and, uh, his legacy at Cabre Fay and, and, and why it was fitting to name a.
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:34.000
Pete Meyer: Yeah, Dick was a volunteer patroller at SP, patroller at Caber Fay for…
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:42.000
Pete Meyer: I think… I… I think as long as… as my dad was around, you know, uh, Dick was there, and so, you know.
01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:40.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:52.000
Pete Meyer: 40… however many years, 40… 40-some years, he was a patroller at Cabaret, and uh… you know, just had a big presence, you know, you knew him.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:53.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:01.000
Pete Meyer: Played football at Ferris. Great stories about that. He was a captain and so he’s tough.
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:02.000
Pete Meyer: And.
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:17.000
Pete Meyer: just a… just a great guy, great patroller, great mentor, um, a ton… lots and lots of stories about Dick Starkey for another day, but, uh, just somebody that we wanted to honor, and, um, so, you know, we made that change.
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:21.000
Stuart Winchester: And why this trail? Why this, uh, why did you choose this one?
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Pete Meyer: you know, that… I don’t… I don’t know why we picked that one. We just… we… we… I think we… the, um… the previous name was an old, you know, an older name that… that… that honored a…
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:47.000
Pete Meyer: an older ski instructor, but I think we thought, you know, maybe… maybe it was time for a change there. Some… maybe just something a little more relevant to… someone more relevant to…
01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.000
Pete Meyer: You know, this this last, you know, 40 years of caprophage tradition.
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. And, and I believe, I believe Crystal still, uh, volunteer patrols there as well, right? Yeah.
01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.000
Pete Meyer: Yes. Yes, she is.
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, that’s great. I haven’t talked to her in a minute, but hi, Crystal. Hope you’re doing great. Pete.
01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:05.000
Pete Meyer: No, no, not about the trail.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, okay, all right. Well, hey, listen, guys, I really appreciate catching up with you. There’s so much always going on at Cabaret, and we were long overdue, so let’s do it again soon, and I gotta get up there and ski that East Peak lift, because I haven’t been in a minute, so I really appreciate that, and I’ll talk to you guys soon, and thanks so much.
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.000
Pete Meyer: Thanks, Stuart. Thanks a lot, Stu. Appreciate it.
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:26.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, talk soon.
01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:28.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, let me just…
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, that was Tim and Pete Meyer of Cabaret. I love Cabaret. It was my pseudo home mountain when I lived in Michigan. It was just 90 minutes down the road, so I never had a season pass there.
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:51.000
Stuart Winchester: but I would go there a lot. I mean, and this was, you know, lift tickets were $20 or something back then, so it didn’t really matter, and they had a lot of specials. So, I want to…
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:57.000
Stuart Winchester: wrap up today, I want to talk about lift tickets a little bit, because there’s some lift ticket deals going on.
01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:59.000
Stuart Winchester: And…
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:14.000
Stuart Winchester: I’ll tell you about the deals first, and then I’ll, I’ll tell you what I make of them as a, as a theme. So we’re gonna focus on Colorado for a moment. So Arapahoe Basin, to celebrate its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets every Wednesday.
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:29.000
Stuart Winchester: from late December through April, except for December 30th, which is holiday week, of course. Uh, they are $50 on Wednesdays outside of those windows, so early season at A-Basin, and then late season, and of course, uh, the mountain typically goes until June.
01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:35.000
Stuart Winchester: $80 lift ticket today, based in on their anniversary weekend, Saturday and Sunday, December 5th and 6th.
01:04:35.000 --> 01:04:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Also, anyone born in 1946, making you 80 years old, skis free all winter. Uh, A-Basin has a lot of ways to get in cheap. They have 3-day packs.
01:04:45.000 --> 01:05:00.000
Stuart Winchester: With no blackouts, any day, use any 3 days for $249. They have midweek packs, 5 days for $319. Midweek season pass is $539, and a full is $699, and of course, A-Basin is unlimited on both the Icon and the Icon.
01:05:00.000 --> 01:05:03.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, base pass, and I wanna see…
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay, they did get rid of the fall pass. I had…
01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:21.000
Stuart Winchester: I had emailed, because… because A-Basin used to have this great pass for, like, 250 bucks. It was from opening day until Christmas, but they did get rid of it. Uh, and… and they… Shayna from A-Basin emailed, and she told me.
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:37.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, for background, that was a very small audience for, for us who were interested in the Fall Pass pack. So, uh, so thank you, Shayna, for getting back to me so quickly, and I’d sent that right before the podcast started. So, so A-Basin deals on Wednesdays, you know, put that down in your.
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:55.000
Stuart Winchester: List if you, if you wanna actually day ski and maybe you have an epic pass, but you wanna, you miss a basin. Uh, and then Thursdays Copper Mountain is again doing $99 Thursdays. They’re play for every Thursdays and a portion of that goes to a good cause. They’re doing that every Thursday from January 7th to April 8th.
01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Including the holiday week in February, I don’t know if that’s a mistake, but grab it while you can, because I don’t think they can take it back once you buy it. Uh, and then.
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:05.000
Stuart Winchester: $99 a copper.
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:19.000
Stuart Winchester: starting Monday, April 12th, which is pretty awesome. So, if you wanted to do a little day ski, and, you know, right now you can still buy tickets and everything, or still buy passes, because we’re recording this on September 17th.
01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:30.000
Stuart Winchester: But if you’re listening in the future, you could do a Wednesday $80 a day basin, a Thursday $99 at Copper Mountain. It’s not a bad couple days in Summit County for a pretty reasonable price, given.
01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:44.000
Stuart Winchester: prices in 2026 for lift tickets at most mountains. Uh, down the road, Aspen, for its 80th anniversary, is doing $80 lift tickets Saturday and Sunday, December 12th and 13th. They also offered…
01:06:44.000 --> 01:07:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, tickets for $3 and 75 cents for Monday, December 14th. But those are sold out and they, I’m pretty much sure they sold out instantly. And it’s funny ‘cause they didn’t even market it at first. And, and Aspen folks tell me they just blew off the shelves. So that is for Aspen’s 80th anniversary.
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Same year as, uh, a basin is celebrating right now. And of course, some of the little guys around there, you know, ski Cooper hasn’t announced their lift ticket prices yet. And I know it’s small, but it’s still, it’s, it’s a place you can go. It’s high. There’s no snow making. It’s all natural snow.
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:22.000
Stuart Winchester: $49 midweek tickets at Ski Cooper last year, maxed out at $99 on weekends.
01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:30.000
Stuart Winchester: Down the road, if you’re on your way to Aspen, Sunlight, which has 1,750 feet of vertical drop.
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:46.000
Stuart Winchester: And two brand new lifts. Well, one was from a base and used, but it was only 20 years old. So they put in two brand new lifts last year. Big vertical. Uh, their lift tickets max out at $109. Midweek, they’re $74 to $94. It’s a fun little area. It gives you Colorado.
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:53.000
Stuart Winchester: with a little bit more of a… a throwback Colorado, old Colorado feel. So, so the question here is.
01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:57.000
Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see a rationalization?
01:07:57.000 --> 01:07:58.000
Stuart Winchester: In the lift ticket market.
01:07:58.000 --> 01:08:04.000
Stuart Winchester: Are we starting to see ski areas value the skier that.
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:19.000
Stuart Winchester: maybe has an Icon Pass, but wants to ski another mountain for a day? Or I guess more in this case, since Copper and A-Basin are both Epic Pass mountains, are we seeing them take advantage of the fact that right now, if you look at prices for.
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Breckenridge, it’s $153 to ski on Friday, November 6th. Who knows what they’ll have open? Probably not a lot.
01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:43.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, it’s 180 that day. Breckenridge goes over 300 for peak days. Uh, and on Monday, April 19th, as, as copper has dropped to 99, Breck right now is set to have a $179 walkup price for Monday, April 19th. So.
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:49.000
Stuart Winchester: I think you’re seeing some smart reactions from some of the…
01:08:49.000 --> 01:08:55.000
Stuart Winchester: larger players and showing there’s still a competitive market in Colorado. The question is…
01:08:55.000 --> 01:09:07.000
Stuart Winchester: will Vail follow? In their earnings call, one of their earnings calls recently, uh, Rob Katz, or their end-of-year earnings, their CEO, Rob Katz, said that Lyft ticket sales had softened considerably.
01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:14.000
Stuart Winchester: To absolutely no one’s surprise, uh, because of the price of lift tickets. So, Ken Vale…
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:27.000
Stuart Winchester: find a way in the softer seasons to start to compete, because it’s clear that their direct competitors are doing so. So let’s look at… I want to go…
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:33.000
Stuart Winchester: to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a minute, and I want to give you some of these.
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:41.000
Stuart Winchester: of these top lift ticket prices for the year. And, and I’ll tell you why I care about top lift ticket prices. And, and I know some of you say, well, it doesn’t matter.
01:09:41.000 --> 01:09:46.000
Stuart Winchester: I think it does matter, and I’ll tell you why.
01:09:46.000 --> 01:10:00.000
Stuart Winchester: Aspen’s peak lift ticket this year for any of the Four Mountains, or all of the Four Mountains, however you want to look at it, is $309. They used to keep pretty on par with Vail. Not anymore. Vail will hit $374.
01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:17.000
Stuart Winchester: Beaver Creek tops in the nation, probably the world $392 in some parts of the world that will get you on a helicopter. Like no joke. I hired a guide in Europe and this was several years ago, but we took one heli run and I think the day was, I don’t know, €250.
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and then that also got us onto the resort for a guide for the rest of the day. So, so it, you know, 392, that’s, that’s something else. Uh, Steamboat will be 344. That’s an Alterra-owned mountain. Another Alterra flagship, Deer Valley, is 349. Vail flagship, Park City, is set to be 369. Again, these are peak day walk-up rates.
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Stuart Winchester: So we’re seeing these continue to rise around Colorado. I don’t think that that will change. I wish it would, but I don’t think it will. They’re busy enough at those times. We’re actually seeing a little softening in Tahoe.
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Stuart Winchester: And Vale didn’t, as far as I know, really promote this hard, but Heavenly, their top lift ticket last year was 3 0 5. They’ve knocked that to 2 84 and a big drop at North Star 3 29 was their top lift ticket rate last year. And that’s down.
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Stuart Winchester: So I think possibly we found the top of the market in Tahoe. In New England, Mount Snow, that’s Vail, $206. Killington, Independent, $225. Stratton, that’s Altera, $229. Okemo, $231.
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Stuart Winchester: And Stowe, Vail’s flagship in New England, $272. So, you’re probably saying, Stu, why do you care? We know you don’t pay these prices. No one listening to this podcast pays those prices.
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Stuart Winchester: But I don’t… and… and… trust me, the ski companies are frustrated that I talk about these prices. Why are you talking about a $392 lift ticket? There’s so many ways to get on Beaver Creek for cheaper. Well, because it’s a $392 lift ticket. And some people…
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Stuart Winchester: People don’t know that, and if they haven’t skied in.
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Stuart Winchester: A decade?
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Stuart Winchester: 15 years, and maybe their brother-in-law gets a place out in Vail, and suddenly they go up, and they say, okay, we’ll just get lift tickets when we get there, because that’s what they’ve done before.
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Stuart Winchester: And maybe they like skiing, but maybe they stepped away from it because they had kids, or they moved to a place where there wasn’t a lot of snow. And this is their chance… this is the chance to recapture them.
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Stuart Winchester: And I thought Jason Bay said it really well yesterday about Camelback, and I know Camelback is not Vail Mountain, but, you know, he would rather create a… a lifelong customer.
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Stuart Winchester: than a one-time customer. And I think that what you see…
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Stuart Winchester: with these really mega-huge lift ticket prices. So that’s just for one day. So imagine…
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Stuart Winchester: you’re a family of four, and you get out to Beaver Creek, and you’re gonna ski for a week, and you find out it’s gonna be $8,000.
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Stuart Winchester: for the 4U, it’s an idiot tax, or maybe an ignorance tax, right? I experienced this recently myself, because obviously I’m really tuned into skiing, but I rented a car in Ireland.
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Stuart Winchester: And I’ve rented cars all over the world, all over Europe, and I’ve always just said, oh, my credit card covers it.
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Stuart Winchester: So I got to Ireland, and they have their own set of rules, which I should have researched, but again, it’s an idiot tax, and they said, uh, sorry, we need proof.
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Stuart Winchester: Your credit card covers this.
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Stuart Winchester: Or, it’s gonna be… I think it was another 45 euros a day, and we were there for, you know, a good 10-12 days.
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Stuart Winchester: So, I paid. I paid the idiot tax, because I didn’t want to go through the process of proving the credit card, which I didn’t even know how to do that, or if I could reach them.
01:13:32.000 --> 01:13:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And, you know, I learned my lesson. I feel kind of dumb, and I think that’s what ultimately ends up happening at skiing. I’ll never forget this experience I had at Steamboat in 2020. This was right before the shutdowns.
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Stuart Winchester: And I went into the ticket office. It’s right at the base of the gondola. Well, I don’t know if they’ve moved it around with all the stuff they’ve done, but it was at the base of the original gondola. I haven’t been back since Wild Blue was put in, but there was a ticket office right there, and I walked in, and.
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Alpine slide tickets, because she just loves the Alpine slides, and we were done skiing for the day, and that stayed open a little bit later, and there was a big ticket board up.
01:14:10.000 --> 01:14:22.000
Stuart Winchester: and it gave you the prices for all of the lift tickets for one day, two day, three… and at the time, I mean, this seems quaint now, they were $200 and whatever dollars, so it was over $200.
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Stuart Winchester: And the… I’ve never seen a sadder line in my life. Like, the people just looked bereft. They just looked like…
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Stuart Winchester: why are we doing this? You could tell that they were somehow thrust into this situation, and they looked like dead people walking, and they looked like people who were probably going to vacation in the Florida Keys the following year, because they.
01:14:45.000 --> 01:14:50.000
Stuart Winchester: See those lift ticket prices, and if there’s no…
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Stuart Winchester: immediate notification that there’s a better way to do it. If there’s no way to buy the bigger pass.
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Stuart Winchester: I love Vail’s Turn Your Ticket program. I love that they’re reemphasizing it. I don’t think Icon has anything like that. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it turns into a one time very frustrated experience. And, you know, any marketer will tell you people talk about their bad experiences.
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Stuart Winchester: much more than their good experiences. So I think the lift ticket market is out of control.
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Stuart Winchester: I hope that there is a market correction happening. I don’t have enough confidence to say that right now, but I can say that, unlike in some of the previous years, there are deals out there, even in the heart of ski country.
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Stuart Winchester: In Summit County.
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:53.000
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Stuart Winchester: You can reach out to Profile Search directly at profilesearch.com, or contact them by email or phone, or send me a note at skiing at substack.com. My email is skiing at substack.com.
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Stuart Winchester: Might go to spam, I might miss it, but I will try to check my spam folder, and connect you directly with this expert team.
01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:41.000
Stuart Winchester: All right, this is where I would normally…
01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:54.000
Stuart Winchester: look at feedback from readers on yesterday’s podcast, but I put it out really late, so I don’t know how much feedback I’m gonna have, because sometimes these interviews are just in the evening, so…
01:16:54.000 --> 01:16:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Let’s see if there’s any comments. There must be a better way to get to the comments. Okay.
01:16:59.000 --> 01:17:15.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, this is from Gustav, longtime paid subscriber. I love that Camelback is pushing their season length. Every region or sub region needs a place like that for the ski community to congregate in the spring. I, I totally agree. And it’s great that the Mid-Atlantic.
01:17:15.000 --> 01:17:20.000
Stuart Winchester: Has that and they’re being aggressive about it. Camelback has a little elevation to help them out.
01:17:20.000 --> 01:17:35.000
Stuart Winchester: In the Midwest, you see Lutzen and Granite Peak will sometimes operate into May, but Boyne Mountain has really been pushing it. They sometimes have a competition with, uh, with Mount Bohemia, which has no snow making, which is funny ‘cause Boyne has like the best snow making and to see who can close the latest.
01:17:35.000 --> 01:17:50.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, up in New England, you have Black Mountain, improbably has come up in New Hampshire, and Mogensen has been on the podcast recently, and even though it faces south and has a low elevation, he’s been keeping Black Mountain open into May for the past couple of years, and of course.
01:17:50.000 --> 01:18:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, Killington, Sugarbush, and Jay Peak always stay open pretty late in Vermont, and uh… and Jay Peak’s been pushing it the last couple years into mid… mid-May, and… and Killington will go to June when they can.
01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, which I don’t think they did this year. Uh, anyway, then out west, you, you have the obvious players. You have A-Basin, you have Snowbird, you have Mammoth, you have Palisades Tahoe, uh, you sometimes get Crystal up in, up in, uh, Washington.
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:26.000
Stuart Winchester: And Bachelor will go late in the ski areas in Mount Hood. Of course, not a lot of good late operators. You know who needs a late operator?
01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:31.000
Stuart Winchester: is, like, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming.
01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:39.000
Stuart Winchester: I know that Wyoming has that Beartooth Basin ski area that opens, but am I missing any? Because I don’t think anyone goes for May.
01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:47.000
Stuart Winchester: And Big Sky told me a few years ago they were gonna start trying to go for May, but I… have not seen them do that yet.
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Anyway, this is getting too long, and my editor is going to scold me severely. So, I am going to wrap up the show for today.
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Stuart Winchester: The next show will be tomorrow, it will be the Ask Me Anything, so if you’ve not gotten your questions in yet, please get them over to me. If you are a paid subscriber, that is who I’m reading the questions from. And I’ve got some pretty good questions so far, but I wouldn’t mind a couple more.
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:17.000
Stuart Winchester: For more content to get all of the Storm’s updates, reading, writing, podcasts.
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:32.000
Stuart Winchester: as soon as they’re out, please go to StormSkiing.com, subscribe to the Storm Skiing newsletter, and the very best way to support independent ski journalism is to upgrade to a paid subscription at StormSkiing.com, which will give you the ability to interact with this podcast, and….
