Who
James Wheeler, co-owner of Toggenburg, New York
Date Recorded
Oct. 19, 2026
About Toggenburg
Owned by: The Wheeler Family
Year founded: 1953, closed since 2021
Base elevation: 1,248 feet
Summit elevation: 1,763 feet
Vertical drop: 515 feet
Skiable acres: 83
Average annual snowfall: 160 inches
Lift count: 3 (1 triple, 2 doubles)
Why I interviewed him
In August 2021, I wrote a post eulogizing Toggenburg, a Central New York ski area that was closing after 68 years:
The cause of death: Peter Harris, longtime owner of the nearby Song and Labrador ski areas, had purchased Toggenburg with the explicit intent of closing it.
“I struggled with the decision,” Harris told me at the time. “After much analysis, it seemed to be a logical decision, and I sincerely think this is better for the Central New York ski scene. I think we’re going to have a better experience, because obviously we’re going to have more resources to invest in the two remaining areas.”
New York State Attorney General Letitia James disagreed. Fourteen months later, her office filed suit against Harris’ company, Intermountain Management, for violating the state’s antitrust laws. As I wrote at the time:
With 14 months to investigate the sale, New York State Attorney General Letitia James has presented a different take. On Friday, she sued Intermountain Management – the umbrella company that owns Labrador and Song – “for buying its main competitor, Toggenburg Mountain, then shutting it down to direct skiers to its own mountains.” This action, James said, created a “complete, unchallenged dominance in the Syracuse area” – a monopoly – for what her office calls “season-pass skiing” around Syracuse, a violation of New York State’s antitrust law, the Donnelly Act. “even if the Toggenburg acquisition and closure did not establish or maintain Intermountain’s monopoly, it harmed, and continues to harm, consumers by eliminating a competitor without any procompetitive justification,” the court summons states.
The state decided in James’ favor in March 2025, but said it needed more time to “decide the appropriate remedy for Intermountain’s anticompetitive conduct.” It took a year and a half to determine that remedy, but last Friday, the AG’s office announced the court-ordered solution: Harris had sold Toggenburg to new owners, who were determined to re-open the facility as a ski area:
New York Attorney General Letitia James today announced that Intermountain Management (Intermountain) has sold Toggenburg Mountain (Toggenburg) to a new owner who plans to rebuild and reopen it for the 2027-28 ski season, restoring competition among Syracuse ski resorts. In October 2022, Attorney General James sued Intermountain for buying its only competitor, Toggenburg, and shutting it down, forcing Syracuse skiers to the two resorts owned by Intermountain. In March 2025, Attorney General James won her case when a judge ruled that Intermountain violated state antitrust law by stifling competition when it shut down Toggenburg and instituted a “no poach” agreement preventing Toggenburg’s owner from hiring any Intermountain employees at his other New York ski resorts. Under a settlement with the Office of the Attorney General (OAG), Intermountain today closed its sale of Toggenburg to Douglas Wheeler, a local business owner who plans to reopen the ski facility.
“Competition among Syracuse ski areas means more choices and better prices and services for New York skiers,” said Attorney General James. “We’re putting an end to Intermountain’s illegal monopoly that allowed it to raise prices and take advantage of skiers. I am thrilled that New Yorkers will once again have access to Toggenburg Mountain, and I will always fight to protect consumers and workers from illegal monopolies that try to profit at their expense.”
So who is Douglas Wheeler? Well, it turns out that, in true New York ski area fashion, Togg will be run family-style. When I spoke to him on Sunday, Wheeler deferred to his son, James Wheeler, as the public face of the mountain. A phone call and a few texts later, and we were set up for this morning’s podcast, where I learned quite a bit about the future of a once-lost ski area.
Transcripts
There are two transcripts. Both are generated by robots. Both are helpful and defective in their own unique ways. I do not proofread either of them.
Transcript 1: Click the “transcript” button at the top of this article. You can only see this transcript on a computer. Because I don’t know why exactly but everything is getting better and dumber all at once it seems. Anyway, this is the transcript that the robots create when I upload the podcast to the internet. The cool thing about it is that you can click on any block of text and the audio will teleport there instantly. The uncool thing about this transcript is that it does not indicate who is talking at any given moment.
Transcript 2: You can read this below. This is the transcript that Zoom creates as we record the podcast. The cool thing about this transcript is that it indicates who is talking at any given moment. The uncool thing about this transcript is that the timestamps do not match the audio. Also, you cannot click on this text to move to the associated point in the audio.
Zoom
Stuart Winchester: My guest today represents the Wheeler family, who last week purchased Toggenberg Ski Area in New York.
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Stuart Winchester: The ski area, which has been closed since 2021, has three chairlifts serving 22 trails, and had been open since the 1950s.
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Stuart Winchester: The Wheelers plan to reopen Toggenberg for the 2027 to 28 ski season. James Wheeler is my guest. James, welcome to the storm. Thank you so much for joining us on such short notice. How does it feel to own a ski area?
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James Wheeler: Stuart, thank you for having me. Uh, it is… it’s, uh, nothing short of a miracle right now. I mean, we’re still, uh, we’re very surprised that this has honestly, uh, gone through. We’re very happy to be where we are right now. Um, and just… the feelings, it hasn’t all set in yet. We’re still very, uh, shocked at some of the things that we’ve discovered.
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James Wheeler: Uh, we’re slowly trying to map out a game plan for which, uh, avenue to tackle first, uh, whether that’s the restaurant end of things, or the actual, the, uh, the mountain end of things, whether that’s snowmaking, or, uh, pumps, or snow cats. We are just getting a game plan and starting to get everything tackled. However.
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James Wheeler: The actual, the feelings of the matter, we’re just overwhelmed with joy and excitement to be able to bring this back to the community.
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Stuart Winchester: Lots to do, and it’s a whirlwind, but a long time building, and your family…
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Stuart Winchester: as I understand it, at least from talking to your father, Doug, yesterday, and yourself, are not skiers. However, you have other attachments to Toggenberg that inspired this. So why did the Wheeler family purchase Toggenberg?
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James Wheeler: Yeah, so I can say I was never much of a skier, and that goes for most of my family. I did a little bit of snowboarding when I was younger, and my sister did some skiing here or there. However, what really roots us to Taugenberg was.
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James Wheeler: My great-great-grandfather, back before Toggenberg was actually a ski resort, he owned the property for agricultural purposes. He raised Toggenberg goats on the property. And that obviously had since gotten sold to the Hickeys, who opened the mountain and ran that successfully for so many years.
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James Wheeler: And, uh, when it got shut down, I’m from Fabius, which is obviously where Taugenberg is, and it just, it really hurt the community. There were so many people devastated. The people that wanted their first jobs there, got their first jobs there, um, grew up skiing there, learned how to ski, and just missed the family-friendly atmosphere. And we…
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James Wheeler: have been working for a little, uh, just under 3 years on trying to purchase and reopen that ski center. It’s been quite the… quite the battle for 3 years, but we’re very excited to be able to have it back, not just in our family, but in the community’s hands, uh, and ultimately.
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James Wheeler: work towards the reopening of this and bringing it back to Fabius.
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Stuart Winchester: It’s incredible how much passion there could be in such a small community.
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Stuart Winchester: around such a small ski area. Did you ever get the sense that there was a despair that it would never reopen, or did folks always kind of know that.
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Stuart Winchester: There was enough passion around the place that someone would figure it out.
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James Wheeler: So, I will say, I think there’s two different groups of people in that sense. There is, uh, there’s your group of people that…
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James Wheeler: they’re so passionate about it, they definitely always saw it as a possibility, and I would say I would fit into that category, obviously, we’ve been working on it for so long. Um, we were able to see the Facebook pages, there’s a Facebook page called ReopenTOG with.
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James Wheeler: over 3,000 followers on it that are just local people for the most part that have been, you know, supporting this and trying to get this, but you obviously have your group of people as well, or even in that Facebook page specifically, starting to watch people over the years dwindle out and, you know.
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James Wheeler: find it less likely to reopen as things start to deteriorate. The worst thing for anything is to sit there. So people definitely started to lose hope, I think, to a sense. But every time that we were able to give the public an update, especially now that we’ve closed, it has just been nothing but positivity. Everyone is.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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James Wheeler: willing to help, excited to help, uh, want to… they want to throw their services, their labor, their skills, whatever the case may be, in any way possible to help bring this mountain back. So I think it has completely re-sparked everyone, or relit a fire in them, uh, for lack of better words, and they just… they want…
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James Wheeler: Nothing more than to help bring this mountain back.
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Stuart Winchester: Well, you’re gonna need some help. Uh, my understanding is the mountain is, uh, is in need of some work. So, so take us into this, James, as much as you can. Give us an overview of the state of the ski area and the buildings and infrastructure on the property.
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James Wheeler: So, like anything, uh, sitting is just awful for… for a lot of the buildings. The… I will say, I guess we can start in, like, the maintenance end of things. The maintenance building, it’s in pretty good condition compared to how it was left off. Obviously, that’s just a basic pole barn that was used for repairing.
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James Wheeler: And storing snow cats and extra equipment and you know, all the snowmobiles and four wheelers that it takes to run the hill. That building is honestly in pretty good condition other than some basic maintenance needs. The whole property as a whole, the cables have been taken off the lifts.
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James Wheeler: All the chairs do still sit there. However, the cables, there’s no point in trying to reuse those. We’re gonna have to purchase new and have those reinstalled on the property.
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James Wheeler: Uh, which we were expecting, we knew that going into it. As far as the snowmaking goes, it’s a question mark. I mean, you can’t really… you’re never gonna dig up the whole ground and try and test every pipe. The only way to do this is to charge that hill and get water thrown…
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James Wheeler: Flowing through those pipes, and…
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James Wheeler: unfortunately, sit back and watch the geysers start shooting out of the ground, and then we have to start, you know, patching it and welding it from there. I am very fortunate, uh, my family has got a welding background, a construction background, so that is nothing that we can’t handle, and I do have some people very close to me that actually.
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James Wheeler: work for water departments and do this on a day-to-day basis. They repair water mains all across the state. So, uh, that is something that we are definitely expecting and prepared for.
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James Wheeler: As far as the lodge goes, it’s, uh, it’s gonna need some work, for sure. There’s, uh, windows spaced in the whole back wall for the people that are familiar with Tongenberg, and that whole wall is gonna need to be taken out and rebuilt, just due to water damage and whatnot. Like, there’s no, there’s no saving it, a lot of the windows are broken and busted, just…
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James Wheeler: from a lack of maintenance, unfortunately. So, we’re gonna have to dedicate quite a bit of time in there, and that’s something that Tongenberg’s always had, this family-friendly feel, this warm, inviting environment, but I think we can capitalize on.
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James Wheeler: the remodel that it’s going to need, and help, you know, make that family feel a more welcoming vibe, even… even greater. We’ve got some ideas, and I don’t want to spill all the beans right now, but I think the public’s going to be super excited for some of the changes that we bring to the place.
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Stuart Winchester: So just jumping in here.
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Stuart Winchester: There’s a lot of chatter, right? A lot of rumors. So…
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James Wheeler: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: Just to clarify with you, because the perception I’ve heard from some people was that the chair lifts had been, the haul ropes and the carriers, the chairs have been stripped away, but it sounds like they’re still on the property and you own those.
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Stuart Winchester: Uh, there was also a perception that all of the snow guns had been removed from the property, but yesterday, Doug said that, indeed, there were still some snow guns, only some had been taken away. Uh, and also in the lodge, uh, kitchen equipment, uh.
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James Wheeler: Correct.
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James Wheeler: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: other… I don’t know about the tables and chairs, things like that, so… so can you… can you set the facts straight on what is still at Toggenberg as far as infrastructure goes?
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James Wheeler: Absolutely. So yeah, a lot of people, as you just mentioned, a lot of people hear a rumor and they run with it rather than just trying to confirm it. And we’ve kept this whole project pretty, pretty silent. So I understand that. I definitely expect the rumors as far as the chairlifts go, the poles.
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James Wheeler: are still there. All of the motoring and whatnot to operate the lifts are still there. They still need to be tested. We’ve gotten in there over the last weekend and definitely started to test out some water as far as, like, in the building goes, and, um, some of the smaller infrastructure, and just getting some stuff cleaned up, but.
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James Wheeler: Uh, going back to the chairlifts, yes, all of the chairs, as far as I’ve been able to tell, are still there. All the numbers seem to add up. The cables are still on the property as well. However, they’ve been cut, and the only way to do… to re-put those on would be splicing them back together.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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James Wheeler: And the cost to splice them back together versus the cost to repurchase new ones just doesn’t make sense. You might as well just buy new and have, you know, cables that are gonna last for the next 15 to 20 years. Um…
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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James Wheeler: as far as snow cats go for the grooming of the hill and pushing the snow around, those… we have one old parts snow cat that’s broken down. It was just simply there, um, I think just for nostalgic purposes, and for them to grab occasional pieces off of as needed, so…
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James Wheeler: Um, we will need to purchase all new ones of those. Uh, the pump house across the street, we have 4 out of the 5 pumps in there. We have to run tests on those, because they’ve been sitting for so long. They were the 4 that were not primarily used.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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James Wheeler: Um, so those are there. Uh, kitchen specifically, that is gonna be a complete overhaul. Most of what’s in the kitchen is either gone, or what is left is…
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James Wheeler: not… it’s never going to be usable. It doesn’t make sense to try and breathe life back into that type of stuff. So, for the bar and restaurant, we’ve got to review the taps and whatnot, but the actual main structural integrity of the restaurant itself looks really good. It’s honestly one of the.
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Stuart Winchester: You’re talking about the foggy goggle, right?
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James Wheeler: Yes, the foggy goggle. Yes, that is actually…
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Stuart Winchester: Okay. I think people will be really happy to hear that.
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James Wheeler: Yes, I was very surprised. I mean, we need to do your basic cosmetics, we want to redo some of the booths, but that’s small stuff compared to what we’re facing with the rest of the hill. We’re very…
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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James Wheeler: Pleased to see how well the condition is in there, and excited to bring that back to the people first, as long as we can get our liquor license and everything sorted out as quickly as possible.
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Stuart Winchester: So let’s take a look a little more specifically at the hill here, James, and I’m sharing my screen for those of you watching on StormSkiing.com or YouTube at Storm Ski Journal. So this is about a circa 2017 trail map from Toggenberg, which, you know, it’s a little bit of an interpretive map, it’s not exactly literal, but.
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Stuart Winchester: It, it gives us a good sense of what the ski area was. So you had the south lift here and then you had the north lift here. Those are both double chairs. And then over here on far lookers left, you had a Borvig triple. Now that, that hall double the north chair.
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James Wheeler: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: is actually dates to 1962. It was moved from Holiday Valley, New York in 2011, but it started as their Mardi Gras double, then they moved it for their Snow Pine double, now it’s the… now it’s, uh, Toggenberg’s North. Uh, the South double is also a haul, dating to 1971, and this Borvig.
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James Wheeler: Correct.
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Stuart Winchester: is from 1986, and then there were also 2 rope tows over here. So, do you… I don’t know if you’ve tested, like, turned on the lifts just to see if the machinery functions, but do you anticipate trying to restart all of these 5 lifts, or are there some that you…
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James Wheeler: Let’s see.
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Stuart Winchester: intend to replace. Just take us through the Lyft fleet and what your current thinking is around what the future of that could be.
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James Wheeler: So, the triple chair, uh, the farthest south lift there, uh, we definitely intend on, uh, getting that one back operational, no matter what. Just, I think that’s honestly one of the best locations of the property, especially for the more skilled skiers. Um, and that was the one that was put in.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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James Wheeler: most recently, we can obviously accommodate the most amount of people on that as well. As far as the rope tows for the bunny hills, I see no reason we cannot reuse those. Those have been taken down and stored inside. All the ropes are stored inside. And those are… I mean, there’s honestly not too much to break or maintain on those. They go up every winter, and they come down every winter.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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James Wheeler: Uh, and they see the least amount of traffic, obviously, which is great. As far as the double chairs in the center there, lift 1 and lift 2, we are going to get those on as soon as possible, and do exactly what you just said. We need to run tests on the motors, we need to get, uh, safety certifiers in there, and at least, you know.
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James Wheeler: give us an idea on if they’re even going to be reusable. If they are not, we will absolutely explore, uh, getting more lifts in there, because running one lift up that hill is just not possible. We need to have as much as possible. Uh, but as of right now, we just closed on this, uh, last Thursday, which would be October 15th, so we need to…
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James Wheeler: Continue to devote some time in there. I will say in the last three days, we’ve been able to get in and start getting an inventory of what is left. Like you had mentioned a little bit ago, as far as snow guns and whatnot, starting to get a count on those and getting a feel and looking at what we can update that with to some more modern times. There’s absolutely plenty that’s reusable there.
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James Wheeler: However, there’s so much that we’re going to have to explore new options for, and in the near future, that may be chairlifts as well. We’re hoping to be able to at least temporarily operate off of what’s there as long as we can pass the safety inspections, which is a whole other battle that we’re going to have to explore.
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James Wheeler: Um, but we are investors, we invest in all of our companies, and make sure that we’re running at least the top of the line, um…
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James Wheeler: you know, whether that’s in the print company, bucket trucks, or the repair shop lifts, or now, in this industry, the chair lifts. We want to always be as safe as possible, with the best equipment as possible.
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Stuart Winchester: So this legacy trail network that we see here may be too early to say, but talk to us about has it been mowed? Has it been maintained? Uh, and you know, what kind of shape is this trail network in as far as being a recognizable trail network?
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Stuart Winchester: And do you plan to bring it back substantively as it was, or do you anticipate maybe some new trails, maybe not bringing back all the trails, maybe thinning out some woods over here in the… these are really good woods, there’s kind of a, like, ravine here, and it’s not on the map, but…
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James Wheeler: Mm-hmm.
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Stuart Winchester: But it’s really fun. So what do you think about what we’re looking at here and how much that could resemble a future Toggenberg?
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James Wheeler: So what I will say is if, like any ski center, you drive by it and it’s been five years, which is a long time, but for Mother Nature to completely take over the land, it’s still very recognizable as a ski center and what Toggenberg was.
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Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
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James Wheeler: Um, out of the gate, we would intend on being able to open everything up that is currently there. As far as thinning out the property and trying to add more trails into at least that specific property in the trail map that you and I are looking at right now, I think you can eventually… if we tried to open it up anymore, it’s just gonna be…
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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James Wheeler: like your main trails there, which are 10 and 11, and even floating into 8 and 9 that you’re looking at, you’re just going to have an open hillside, and I don’t think anyone would enjoy that. So trying to keep everything off to that right-hand side of the property, the north end of the property, leaving, like, a little bit of a wooded feel, and having the skate park up above there, I think that’s very important.
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Stuart Winchester: Yep.
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Stuart Winchester: Right.
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James Wheeler: to stay. However, we would love to invest in more property, um, going down the southern side of the hill, as long as it can work out. I’m not going to say that that’s going to be anything in the near future. However, we would love to do that and expand this mountain south a little bit, and be able to give people more trails, and.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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James Wheeler: just a bigger chunk of property to, you know, ski on, because obviously Stockenberg is a smaller ski center for the area. However, it was still widely recognized. As you know, it’s been such a hit after talking to everyone about bringing it back, so…
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Stuart Winchester: So I brought up the Google map here, James, for…
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James Wheeler: Yes, and you should be able to see on that too quite a bit. I’m sorry to interrupt. Yes, you mentioned the mowing and whatnot. There has been almost no mowing done. It is completely overgrown. We actually spent a lot of time this past weekend doing a lot of mowing and cleaning up.
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Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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James Wheeler: And the weeds are 5 feet tall, so…
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Stuart Winchester: Oh, wow.
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James Wheeler: it’s been crazy. So, you can see in the top corner of that hill, there was, like, a random spot that was mowed for, I’m assuming, hunting purposes. Um, but other than that, it has been completely left to just overgrowth.
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Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
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Stuart Winchester: So you can see Sagenberg, the developed ski area, is on just a portion of this large ridge that humps up. It’s very, uh, it’s a very western New York feature, these glacial ridges here. So how much property.
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Stuart Winchester: does your family own here, James? And you suggested maybe there were expansion opportunities to the south here. Can you just tell us a little bit about what you have now, and what the potential in the future is?
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James Wheeler: So, looking at that map that you’re seeing, uh, most of our property is honestly that hill that you’re directly seeing with the ski trails. It does butt up to the right-hand side in the top corner just a little bit. Um, where it flattens out, it’s less, you know, you can’t really ski on it because it’s just too flat, and the trails just aren’t there.
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Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:14.000
James Wheeler: Um, and then across the road where the pump house is and the parking lot is, we have some property over there. It’s a total of 156 acres, uh, give or take just a little bit. I think it’s, like, 156.7.
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:31.000
James Wheeler: Um, and then for future expansion, obviously this is just a very vague topic right now. Everything is still privately owned, and we would love to explore the option of moving south a little bit. There’s some larger chunks of property, which is great about Tongenberg Road.
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:46.000
James Wheeler: is it’s mostly large chunks. There’s some houses at the base of the hill, off to the south side of the property. However, up on the hill, it’s mainly 60-acre chunks, 40-acre chunks, like, stuff like that. And we would love to talk to those neighbors, um, and see if they would ever.
00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:48.000
James Wheeler: Be interested in that.
00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:49.000
Stuart Winchester: And it really…
00:27:49.000 --> 00:28:03.000
Stuart Winchester: looks like great ski terrain. Toga’s a great ski mountain, and this looks like about the same pitch and height. So that’s fantastic, James, and I’m sure the Toggenberg skiers are gonna be excited if you bring it back, no matter what state, but it sounds like.
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:21.000
Stuart Winchester: the Wheeler family is going in this in a very ambitious way. You know, I talked to, uh, John Meyer in 2021, and he’s the fellow who owns Greek Peak, and he had owned Taugenberg, and he sold it, uh, to the fellow who closed it. Uh, John Meyer gave me a number in 2021. He… he estimated that it would be $10 million.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:35.000
Stuart Winchester: to bring it up to, quote, standard. He didn’t say exactly what standard was, but to modernize the mountain. By my calculations, that’s around $12.3 million in today’s dollars, since that figure was 5 years ago. Do you have a number.
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:43.000
Stuart Winchester: that you’ve estimated for how much it’s going… you’re gonna have to invest into Toggenberg just to get it running again?
00:28:43.000 --> 00:29:01.000
James Wheeler: So, honestly, as a lot of people know, and I mean, just to, again, clear up some unanswered questions that a lot of people have, there’s so many things that we weren’t able to test prior to the purchase. We took a huge gamble on this, knowing that the town is.
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:17.000
James Wheeler: behind us, and willing to support us, and all the people are ready, and willing to, you know, help us in every way possible. Um, I will say that it’s going to be millions and millions of dollars. There’s no getting around that. However, until I’m able to fully test the lifts, and fully test the pumps, and.
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:31.000
James Wheeler: um, the lighting and everything on the hill, it’s all, it’s all question marks right now. Um, so until we’re able to determine that, I don’t want to throw out any numbers, because I could be off by, uh, such a great amount. But it’s definitely going to be millions, there’s no disputing that.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm. Good.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:36.000
Stuart Winchester: So the, uh, the argument for closing Toggenberg was that…
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:54.000
Stuart Winchester: there had been a declining population in central New York, uh, in Syracuse area, and that there was more competition for people’s time than there once was. Uh, and certainly the latter is, is true when you look at everything from travel hockey to Netflix to video games, uh, people have a lot of ways to spend their time.
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:29:54.000 --> 00:30:01.000
Stuart Winchester: Um, obviously, you think differently, so what’s given your family confidence that there is indeed.
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:18.000
Stuart Winchester: room for another large ski center, because you have Labrador and Song right there, which the fellow who had bought Toggenberg owned, and closed Tog thinking that they would be busier, but you’re gonna make a go for it, so what gives you that confidence that, yes, there is a market for Toggenberg as a ski center?
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:06.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:38.000
James Wheeler: So, I think that the idea of people being distracted by, whether that’s video games or Netflix, or honestly just the need to work more nowadays with the cost of living being so high, that argument’s 100% there. You guys are 100% right, there’s less people getting outdoors and doing that type of stuff, and that’s unfortunate. I would hope that.
00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:54.000
James Wheeler: we can slowly turn that around and get more people outside doing these outdoor activities. As much as I’m not personally a skier, I have a ton of outdoor hobbies that I enjoy. Um, however, just the argument that there’s not enough support to, you know.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:06.000
James Wheeler: have 3 ski centers in this area within 15 to 20 minutes of each other. I don’t think that’s necessarily an accurate statement, just due to… look at the time frame that, you know, Taugenberg was open.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:17.000
James Wheeler: it was, I think, 68 years, I believe? I think that was the actual time, and yeah, it never went bankrupt, there was never a struggle, there was… there was no issues, it was owned…
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm, yeah.
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:27.000
James Wheeler: the whole time, and operated successfully the whole time with zero problems. And all the other ski centers in the area, um, did the exact same thing. Like, there is…
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:44.000
James Wheeler: enough love and enough diversity, I would say, in the skiing community to be able to accept people in every single ski area. The thing that Tongenberg offers that a lot of the local ski centers, I don’t want to say can’t offer, because they absolutely do, but is a little more accommodating for at Tongenberg, is.
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:44.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:31:44.000 --> 00:32:02.000
James Wheeler: uh, the beginning, uh, the beginners in the skiing industry, whether that is children or even adults learning how to ski, the bunny hills at Tigerberg, those training hills, and the ski schools were just so well loved. Uh, being that what we talked about earlier, those rope tows to be able to get you up the bunny hills, so you’re not.
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:21.000
James Wheeler: you’re not walking, you’re not trekking up the hill. It’s all right there, it’s all accommodating, and there’s actually room for growth inside of that as well, if we feel as though that’s needed to expand some of the bunny hills. Tonkinburg had a great school program with all the local schools, and that is one thing that I can definitely say we’ve been reached out to by numerous schools.
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:39.000
James Wheeler: Um, since announcing the closing, however, even beforehand, the people that did know about it, they were so excited to be able to bring, uh, the school programs back to Toggenberg, because it was so… it was closer to a lot of the schools that are able to accommodate that, whether that’s Fayetteville Manlius, or Cazenovia.
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:44.000
James Wheeler: Um, or even going a little bit more north of that, towards the Syracuse area, JD. Um…
00:32:44.000 --> 00:33:01.000
James Wheeler: And I will say, I mean, that has just been something that has given us some reassurance, knowing that we’ve got the schools behind us and all the beginners. Everyone’s got to start somewhere. And so many people started at Toggenberg and then expand to the larger mountains from there. Labrador and Song are absolutely a little bit bigger than Tog.
00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:16.000
James Wheeler: And they are more for your skilled skiers, where people that need to start and learn, they might be a little ambitious to start at Labrador Song, like so many of these viewers know. I mean, they’re much steeper hills, some of them, or they’re not as accommodating for.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:23.000
James Wheeler: beginners because they’re longer runs. And I think that everyone can agree to that.
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.000
Stuart Winchester: So, James, uh…
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Stuart Winchester: Tell us a little bit.
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:29.000
Stuart Winchester: about…
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:44.000
Stuart Winchester: I heard some references from Doug or someone else associated with this, that there may be opportunities for activities beyond just skiing. You’re looking at year-round stuff. What do you have in mind?
00:33:43.000 --> 00:34:03.000
James Wheeler: You’re absolutely right. So, I think that is one thing in this specific area. Um, we’re not as north as the Adirondacks, um, or even, you know, out of the state, going towards the Vermont area or out west. Um, skiing is a very limited window here. We’ve got to push as many people into the mountain in a 3-month time as we can get it.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:20.000
James Wheeler: So I think like everyone has kind of learned in this area, the best way to keep a ski center open and successful every single season is by having summer activities. Tongenberg never did anything throughout the summer. The bar was never open.
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:19.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:30.000
James Wheeler: there was no outdoor activities to do throughout the summer, and I think that there’s a huge missed opportunity there. We are looking into, you know.
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:43.000
James Wheeler: Mountain biking trails, I’m not going to say that that’s a guarantee as of right now, but we’re exploring that. I have had countless people reach out asking if we would be willing to put those in. We’ve got a huge chunk of state land south of Tonga, or uh…
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:59.000
James Wheeler: Uh, yeah, a little bit south of Tongenberg, actually. It’s called Morgan Hill State Forest, and there’s mountain bike trails through there, and it is so populated. People go in there all the time, but being able to have, you know, something for the more skilled mountain bikers… Morgan Hill is not as steep, where this would be a.
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:14.000
James Wheeler: Obviously, a ski center is super steep grounds. Also, expanding the bar and being able to accommodate that year-round, maybe not every day, but at least a couple days a week throughout the summer and throughout the fall, I think is definitely an opportunity that we can give to the public.
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:31.000
James Wheeler: we can try it. I mean, it doesn’t hurt to try it and see if the people would like that. There’s nowhere local, you have to drive 15 to 20 minutes to be able to sit down and have a decent dinner, unless you want, like, a gas station pizza, obviously. So being able to service those needs in this area.
00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:37.000
James Wheeler: we’ve got plenty of population for it, and the Foggy Goggle had so many well-recognized, uh.
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:52.000
James Wheeler: food choices or desserts that were there that were so loved, I think there’s plenty of people that would be able to service that. Also, to expand on that, we are business owners in other industries, and we are going to use that property.
00:35:52.000 --> 00:36:07.000
James Wheeler: Um, not specifically where the ski mountain is, but there’s a small parcel, uh, north of the actual mountain. There’s a field there. And we would hope to. It’s definitely not set in stone right now, but we would hope to expand right there and move our other locations down there.
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:24.000
James Wheeler: And be able to, you know, have everything in one central location, so that way, if we do need to do anything, or accommodate, um, venues or something along those lines throughout the summer, our businesses are right there to help out with that, um, accommodate for parking right there, and any other needs that the ski center may have throughout the summer.
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:39.000
Stuart Winchester: So James, let’s get into that a little bit because I think that’s an important point that the Wheeler family owns multiple businesses in the area and is established as responsible business owners, right? Because I said you’re not skiers and that’s fine.
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:38.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:55.000
Stuart Winchester: Fine. There’s plenty of ski area owners who are not skiers. I’ll give you one example is Charles Jefferson, who owns the Montage ski area in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He, he’s a developer and, and he saw that Montage wasn’t doing well. He purchased it. I think he’s done a great job fixing it.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:51.000
James Wheeler: Right.
00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:10.000
Stuart Winchester: Uh, and, and we’ve also seen, uh, the model where there are folks who own other businesses, they buy a skier that needs a lot of help. Titus, uh, up in the Adirondacks is one example. Holiday Mountain down in the Catskills is another example of, of.
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:21.000
Stuart Winchester: guys who were successful businessmen, and they had, you know, they both happened to be in, like, oil and gas, uh, Mike, uh, Mike Taylor and, uh, and Bruce Monet up in Titus, but, but…
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.000
Stuart Winchester: They…
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Stuart Winchester: Were a, that gave them a little bit of latitude to invest some outside funds into the mountain to begin with. So just tell us what you can about your family’s businesses and how those might give you the resources and, and also the.
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Stuart Winchester: the experience to be able to take on a project like this, like Toggenberg?
00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:01.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely. So like you mentioned, I mean, it’s no secret. We are definitely, we’re not big skiers. It’s not why we got into this. A lot of why we got into this was the family passion for having the property back in our name. However, yes, we are.
00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:18.000
James Wheeler: Uh, we own a sign company and an apparel company, Patriot Prints, and a repair shop, Patriot Diesel and Auto. And then I started an excavation company when I was 18, um, where I still… I just got done looking at a job before I jumped on this meeting. And that gives us a lot of the resources we’re gonna need to tackle this project.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:29.000
James Wheeler: Um, we’re gonna have to dig up piping and replace that, like we had mentioned. Uh, hanging lights and whatnot, we’ve got bucket trucks. Uh, and like you mentioned, there’s gonna be…
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:41.000
James Wheeler: Toggenberg’s not gonna have any revenue coming in for a long time, so we’re gonna need to pump money in from somewhere, and we absolutely know that we have funds coming in from those other businesses that we can allocate to this project for a while.
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:56.000
James Wheeler: And we are super excited to be able to offer that to the public. We kind of want to be that one-stop shop, as much as we’re not necessarily a huge corporation. I don’t… I wouldn’t want to be, to be honest with you. I don’t want to be a faceless owner.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:15.000
James Wheeler: And I know my father feels the exact same way. We want to be involved at all times. I want people to walk through the door and see me there, and be able to ask me questions, and see how it’s going. We had a couple people stop in yesterday, just to see what was going on, and they asked, like, are we… are you guys working for the Wheelers? We’re like, absolutely not, we are the Wheelers. Like, you are seeing us actually do the work. We are here.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:28.000
James Wheeler: And we want people to know who we are. So, as much as we like to stay behind the scenes and do a lot of the work, because that’s how a lot of this stuff gets done, I do not want people to ever wonder who I am, and that’s why I’ve been able to.
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:40.000
James Wheeler: jump on these podcasts or these news interviews. I don’t want to be a ghost, and I don’t think that’s going to get us anywhere either. So, being as forthcoming and as public as I can with everything.
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:56.000
James Wheeler: Uh, that is absolutely what we’re going to be doing, is using those funds to help rebuild, um, using the resources around us. We’re going to start to pursue, uh, partnerships. I don’t want to say investors or anything, but partnering up with some of the local businesses.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:14.000
James Wheeler: that want to help donate some of their time. I’m very close to the local contractor that wants to be a huge part of building any new buildings or remodeling anything that needs to be there, and in turn for that, we’re going to advertise for him as much as possible, having signs out by the road throughout the rebuilding process, posts on social media.
00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:30.000
James Wheeler: And advertisement on the hill. And then we definitely plan, and I will tell you this, that we definitely plan on having a dedication wall to all people that helped out. Whether that’s water needs, construction needs, the building supplies themselves, we wanna make sure that those people are recognized permanently.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:42.000
James Wheeler: Um, at Taghenberg, because after all, it is going to be a community project. This is not just the wheelers. The wheelers are getting this started, however, this is truly going to be the local and surrounding areas bringing this back.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:57.000
James Wheeler: And I wouldn’t be able to do it myself. My father and I, and our whole family, my sister included, we would not be able to, uh, tackle this by ourselves. We need the people around us, and we’re very fortunate for having those… the resources, whether that’s equipment or.
00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:03.000
James Wheeler: people and the friends and family that we have around us supporting us. We are beyond blessed to have that.
00:40:58.000 --> 00:40:59.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:13.000
Stuart Winchester: So, so let’s talk about Doug for a minute, your father. I, I had a really good conversation with him yesterday, and he said, I, look, I’m not doing public-facing, on-video interviews. James is gonna be the face of this thing.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:29.000
Stuart Winchester: But we had a good talk, and I have to say that he sounded so excited by the challenge of getting all this machinery running, and he mentioned he was a master mechanic and had owned some auto repair businesses. Tell us about your father.
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.000
James Wheeler: Absolutely.
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:34.000
Stuart Winchester: And and his skill set and also just the energy and what it’s like to be around him.
00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:49.000
James Wheeler: So, what I will say about my father is he’s… when… I know I just spoke about being, like, faceless and whatnot, and he is absolutely not going to be a faceless owner. He is just so busy tying up, uh, his time into the other companies, and into, you know, starting to explore.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Okay.
00:41:49.000 --> 00:42:05.000
James Wheeler: Uh, the cables for the lifts, and liquor licenses, and food inspections, all those types of things. He is starting all that process already, which is why I am taking over, um, doing, you know, the in-person interactions a lot of the time, or doing these interviews. Um, however, yeah, my father, he is…
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:23.000
James Wheeler: he’s unstoppable. There’s no… no getting around that. He is… he is a master tech, like you mentioned. He’s been an auto mechanic his whole life. And he is, uh… before that, he built… or he did construction, he built houses. And he is, uh, absolutely the person for this project. He’s a jack-of-all-trades, for sure.
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah.
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.000
Stuart Winchester: Yep.
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:28.000
James Wheeler: And he’s the type of guy, if you bet against him, he’ll prove you wrong just to prove a point.
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:44.000
James Wheeler: So I think the very few comments that we’ve had about it’ll never return or it’s not possible, that just fuels him. But there’s truly, I mean, I’ve learned everything that I know from him as far as mechanical skills and he.
00:42:44.000 --> 00:43:07.000
James Wheeler: Every time I literally think like, oh, we need to call someone and ask them for help. No, he knows it. He just truly knows a little bit about everything. So he’s very excited for the, like you mentioned, the actual rebuilding processes, getting the equipment up and running. He’s super excited to get that hill charged and find the leaks and get a plan and build a map of what needs to be taken care of and then the lift motors.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Thank you.
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:58.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:19.000
James Wheeler: there’s nothing that he can’t rebuild that’s, uh, runs on diesel fuel or gasoline, that’s for sure. So, there’s, uh, there’s no, no concerns there for, uh, for, uh, any of the people that are wondering, so.
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:26.000
Stuart Winchester: That’s incredible. All right, James, leave us with this. What can you give us in the way of a…
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:44.000
Stuart Winchester: anticipated timeline, and you know, again, you bought this thing 4 or 5 days ago, so I’m not gonna hold you to this, but just for aspirational purposes, what are you hoping for as far as reopening the restaurant, reopening the ski hill.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Whatever other milestones you may see in there.
00:43:47.000 --> 00:44:02.000
James Wheeler: So, I will be vague in what I’m saying here. It could be a completely different, uh, timeframe than what I’m hoping for. A lot of people keep throwing around the 2027-2028 ski season for a reopening timeframe.
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:56.000
Stuart Winchester: Fair.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:11.000
James Wheeler: We mentioned those numbers back in the springtime, when we thought we were going to be closing and getting everything finished up. Obviously, we’re 6 months behind that.
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:06.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:29.000
James Wheeler: Um, we are going to do everything in our power to have it reopen by that time frame, but as we just discussed throughout this whole podcast, there’s so many unanswered questions that have to be figured out still, and we’ve spent the last 3 days just mowing and cleaning up around the property, just to be able to get into the buildings that we need to get into.
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:29.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:35.000
James Wheeler: to start checking stuff out. So that is our goal, as far as the actual entire ski mountain would be.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:49.000
James Wheeler: Um, as far as the bar and restaurant, I know I mentioned that I’d like to have that open sooner. I would love to see that open in 6 to 8 months, a little bit before. It’s never… I don’t see any way that it would be the springtime.
00:44:49.000 --> 00:45:06.000
James Wheeler: However, towards the fall, as it starts to get closer towards that ski season, if it’s possible, I would absolutely love to do it. And I will keep everyone updated. We did start a social media, um, channel called Taugenberg Revival. That’s on Facebook and Instagram right now. We are in the process. I’ve got a, uh…
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:18.000
James Wheeler: person on my staff that does photography. They work for us full-time. We will be documenting and doing videos of this whole project, and we are in the works of starting a YouTube channel where people can follow along and see all the progress that we’re doing.
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:09.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:35.000
James Wheeler: And we will keep everyone updated on that if timeframes start to come sooner than expected, or if they are unfortunately going to be delayed. I don’t have a concern of people starting to get burnt out, though, because after all, it’s been 5 years already, and they’re just as excited now as they were the day that it closed.
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:43.000
James Wheeler: So I think people will be a little disappointed if we can’t do it for next season, but I think they understand the task that’s against us, so…
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:59.000
Stuart Winchester: I, I will say based on the ski area rebuilds that I’ve seen around the country, once new owners get in and the intent and the energy is there, I, I think you’ll find that people will give you a lot of grace. Uh, Hatley Point down in North Carolina was purchased by a couple.
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:04.000
Stuart Winchester: it was known as Wolf Ridge before, and they actually had to… they wanted to get it open.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:20.000
Stuart Winchester: For the next winter and they weren’t able to, they actually just closed it completely for one winter because they, it just needed so much work and people were just so glad because when it came back, it was so much better than it was before. So I, listen, I like the plan. I got, I have one crazy question for you.
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.000
James Wheeler: Right.
00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:23.000
Stuart Winchester: Does your family still do goats?
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:43.000
James Wheeler: I will say we do not own goats yet. However, there’s a lot of people pushing for that, even on our own staff. They want us to get some goats. My girlfriend’s interested in it, and I think it’s something we’re going to have to explore. We don’t do it right now. However, I think having a couple of goats right there around Taugbert, I think it’s almost a necessity at this point.
00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:45.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, it’s…
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:56.000
James Wheeler: Everyone’s so excited, and I… as we talked about, potentially having some, uh, some summer plans there, being able to have some goats and some other animals for people to see, I’m not gonna say it’s out of the picture right now.
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:46:56.000 --> 00:47:11.000
Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I also asked because, uh, Jay Peak up in Vermont and Mountain Creek down in New Jersey and some other ski areas, they’ll put goats on, and apparently they just destroy the vegetation in a good way. Like, they would mow that whole thing. If you put, you know, 30, 40 goats up there, they take care of that for you.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:07.000
James Wheeler: Yeah.
00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:27.000
James Wheeler: That’s what we were talking about. We need to set up a fence line and just have them go up and down the hill mowing it for us so that way we don’t have to. But no, I will say, I’ll leave you guys with this. We will be having Tonganbird merch out this week on the Patriot Prints website. We have a web design guy.
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:18.000
Stuart Winchester: Yes.
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:27.000
Stuart Winchester: Oh, cool.
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:46.000
James Wheeler: that is, uh, working on our pa- or on our actual Tongberg website right now. Uh, we just want to make sure that that is… is accommodating for everyone’s needs right now, because obviously, there’s not going to be skiing this season, so what’s going on the Tongberg website will be updates for events that we’re trying to host sooner than later.
00:47:32.000 --> 00:47:33.000
Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:47.000
Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:48:02.000
James Wheeler: Um, and there’s gonna be no shortage of those. I wanna make sure that we can at least get people in there, not necessarily skiing or drinking at the bar, but being able to come there for, um, a holiday party. I don’t know if that’ll be Christmas or New Year’s, or what it’ll be, but some kind of an event that we do.
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:19.000
James Wheeler: a couple times before we actually get that ski center open. Uh, we’ll make sure to post all that on the social media and the website as it comes, but right now, um, in the moment, what we’re gonna have is a bunch of Tangenberg merch that can get everyone excited, and again, start generating some revenue there as well, so that way.
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:34.000
James Wheeler: all proceeds, all money made there will be going directly to the reopening of TOG, and I think if I haven’t made that clear enough to everyone, a lot of people know that, but all of the money that you spend in the other companies right now will be pumped directly back into the reopening of this mountain.
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:49.000
Stuart Winchester: Love it. This conversation got me so fired up, James. I am all in on your vision. I appreciate it. I hope that you will come back on the pod every now and then throughout this process to give us some updates. You absolutely crushed it. Thank you for coming on last minute. And best of luck.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.000
James Wheeler: Well, thank you very much.
00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:59.000
Stuart Winchester: with, uh, with the revitalization of TOG. This is, uh, really, really exciting news, and… and I think that it sounds like the right family got a hold of it, so… so best of luck, congratulations.
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:01.000
James Wheeler: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me.
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:03.000
Stuart Winchester: You got it. Talk soon.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.000
James Wheeler: Yes, sir. Thank you.
