19 Comments
Feb 15, 2022·edited Feb 15, 2022Liked by Stuart Winchester

As a Gore regular, retired 60 day/year skier & NYS taxpayer, my answer to your above question is: “maybe not the best way, but a good way, primarily because $30 mil into the N Creek economy is much needed and at the end of the day it’s only a rounding error in the $216 billion NYS budget.” (0.00014 to be precise)

Personally, I’ll miss the coziness of that half decade old lodge at the Village Slopes, and don’t welcome the increased attention there because it feels like “my own private hill“, but located within the Adirondack Pk Blue Line, it will never have a significant amount of ski in/ski out accommodations and the $ boost which that provides (although there is an ambitious development which has languished for a decade or so.)

So the $30mil project will help this community’s year round economic struggles and is an acceptable compromise.

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Feb 6, 2022Liked by Stuart Winchester

Glad to see you writing about ORDA Stuart - as a NYC and Queensbury resident, Gore is my home mountain and I often let my mind wander about the uniqueness of state owned mountains and spend holidays talking to a NYS politician I am related to about it. A few thoughts:

First, if the mandate as you quote it is only about recreation it should be amended to make economic development for the regions priority #1 because that is what it is. All of of us in NYC get tons of infrastructure paid for by NYS (not to mention real estate developments subsidized for decades by tax breaks) so I have no problem with these upstate regions getting a little too.

To me, the big issue with Gore and WF financially has always been no real estate development. I don’t know the economics of ski resorts very well, but I have always assumed that at most modern mega mountains like the ones we all know in VT, the real estate subsidizes the skiing. As someone who sat in the back of a VW van driving two hours each way to Caberfae as a kid, ski in/ski out lodging has always seemed the ultimate luxury. I have only done it 5-6 times in my life and it always amazes me. I have to think without it Gore and WF are at a huge disadvantage. But that’s the way it has to (and I think should) stay, at least for Gore and WF. So they will forever be fighting that both for finances and getting pampered NYC skiers to come.

But I am intrigued by your comparison to Sunapee - I didn’t know it was leased from the state, and it doesn’t seem to have a real estate component, so I wonder if the economics make sense for Vail, or it just came in the bag with other NE mountains they bought. And I assume Cannon loses money on operations like ORDA but don’t know that for a fact.

Anyway, I for one will take the ORDA resorts for one reason: if I am only going to get 1-2 weekend days of skiing in, I don’t want 20 minute lift lines and even on the most crowded days Gore spreads people out if you know where to go when. That enough to keep me away from weekends in VT. This is probably ultimately selfish vis a vis the economic development argument, but I will take it as long as it takes ORDA, LP, and NC to figure out how to get more ski visits.

And I agree wholeheartedly with the feeder hills getting more tax breaks and snowmaking subsidy. I will keep working on the politician relative about that. But, the little guys should take note that thanks to Covid and all the skiiing I did at the end of my work-from-home days last year, I bought a West Mtn 6pak to go with my Gore season pass this year. So good skiing (and West is so much better than when I first got to this area 20 years ago) begets more good skiing. Maybe Hickory is next…

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I don't blame private ski area's competing with State owned ski area's. I think Platekills proposal seems very reasonable on the surface.

Question, are the New York owned ski area's pricing truly predatory? Are the state owned ski area's blowing snow when nobody else is? Obviously their lift infrastructure is more updated.

I love the theory if they are going to waste the money anyway let it be on skiing :) and i would expand that to more outdoor activities as well.

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Excellent read. I would suggest that Laslzo Vajtay's points on previous Bellayre expansions are good reads. In particular, see his 2013 proposal below.

Plattekill's Proposal:

• State backed interest-free loans for the private resorts that compete with Belleayre.

• A commitment by New York to refrain from predatory lift ticket pricing.

• True joint marketing between the ski areas to increase skier visits to the Catskills.

• Promotion of a regulatory environment that encourages equivalent terrain and infrastructure/sewer expansion at the private resorts.

Source letter: https://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/7794-12142-694-plattekill-responds-to-the-belleayre-expansion

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Good read Stuart, I agree with a lot of what your wrote but I think you miss a few things regarding ORDA and NY. Who is Gore really competing with? It's Vermont, it's Vail. It's not West and Oak Mountain. These mountains compliment Gore and Gore compliments them, they are not necessarily competitors. I agree NY State can and should do more to support the feeder hills. These hills are the life blood of the industry and should not be forgotten.

This lodge has been in the master plan for years if not longer, there is a massive ski in/out resort development proposed and partially started that has been waiting on ORDA and the state to complete their end of the bargain.

I see this lodge as a "if you build it they will come" moment. There is also a plan for a connection from the Ski Bowl to Burnt Ridge and then to the base area via lift service of some sort. I would like to see that connection done before this lodge personally. ORDA beat it's previous record for season pass sales by many multiples this year, better ability to spread people away from the Gondola and onto Burnt Ridge and to the Ski Bowl would be a very welcomed development in my book.

Keep up the great reporting and writing!

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I found out the hard way, several years ago, that where Smuggs falls down hard is if you're a solo parent with a kid in ski school. Between the long slow lifts and the long skate from Morse to the Madonna/Sterling base, I got only three runs before I had to skate back to Morse to pick up the kid. And that was on a day with zero lift lines. Looked like some amazing terrain, wish I'd had a chance to ski more of it.

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Your view on ORDA is one sided and flawed at best. Is it New York’s fault that small ski areas did not keep up with state of the art snow making & lifts? Why is New York’s financial commitment any different than say Pennsylvania’s commitment to hunting-one of the largest in the USA. Here non-hunters support hunting just as non-skiers support ORDA via taxes levied and of course user fees. As someone who grew up on Long Island and couldn’t wait to get away from the insane taxes, I call The Commonwealth home(here were allowed to actually observe the second amendment but the skiing is lousy and the few larger “resorts” are or have been purchased by Vail (Powder, etc etc).

Does Platekill view BELLEAYRE (ORDA) as the enemy ? Or is it Hunter? The reality , I don’t think they fear either, they have a great family owned operation but they’re smart too renting the mountain for revenue on weekdays . Small areas can thrive - look at Mad River or Magic(although Magic is now on Indy). See while you slam ORDA for wanting to upgrade and improve gore mountain the real issue and threat to the small areas whether you agree or not is the proliferation of the three big ski companies and their multi use multi resort cards. As someone who skis over 30 days a year I have no choice but to buy either an epic or icon I chose icon I also do a season of Belaire and don’t waste my time energy or breath and skiing in Pennsylvania. Sure wish we had an Olympic committee resort in Pennsylvania but we don’t really have mountains here and you choose to slam the organization that is kept wife is gore and Belair alive and thriving so what happened did you like have a lousy experience in one of these or maybe take a Fall there??

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Outstanding edition. A few reactions:

- You now have me studying the Smuggs map and spinning the 3D Google Earth views when I should be working!

- I was also out those two cold negative 18 degree mornings - at Waterville Valley and Cannon. But with the deep blue sky, sunshine, and lack of wind - it really wasn't a factor at all! It's the cold blustery days that take the fight from you. I hate the wind. Cold isn't so bad.

- You would probably attach the Free Market Bro label on me. No problem. But when you support a free market, key elements include (1) a fair, even playing field and (2) a market where externalities (or costs) are not offloaded onto other parties. Anyway, the deep investments (and ongoing losses) by the state of NY is really unfair. I totally agree that if the goal is to support the industry, then spread it around.

- Admittedly, I do really like Gore. And most highway rest stops have a more inviting ambience than the current building over there at North Creek. So at some point, every Free Market Bro is forced to stop screaming "stop wasting money" and move on to "well if you are going to waste the money, maybe this project isn't so bad . . . "

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And there it is…welcome to the smuggs “family”

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The hanging gardens of Adirondack Tourism is Lake George, 30 miles from Gore Mt. The State of NY continues to spend millions on boondoggle campgrounds, $20m rest areas, and the ORDA venues. Lake George "survives" the winter with ice bars, and now ice castles, and a February weekends Winter Carnival. What they really need is ANY winter activity, ice skating, sledding, XC-Skiing, and small hill Alpine skiing (bring back Fred Pabst's original ski area on Prospect Mt.).

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Smuggler's Notch is a family's dream. They have enough going on that even the family members that don't ski can be happy!

One note about the Vail cell phone lift line signs. Based on what I read here and other sites, it sounds like Vail is banning phones completely in the lift lines. At Mt. Snow and Okemo that doesn't appear to be the case. It's only after the final merge prior to loading the lift. And while I haven't seen a chair lift go unloaded because someone's focus was on the cell phone, it does get in the way of "filling the white in front of you". Does it seem like Vail might have other things to pay attention to? Perhaps. But does hit hurt to remind folks to pay attention while approaching and loading the lifts? No. Seems like we have other things to pay attention to.

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Good stuff Stuart. Your continued pokes at environmental protection are sure to rattle the enviro-bro skiers among us. We should let all ski areas build whatever and wherever they want, just like utility companies and mining ops. Rules shmules

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