The fact that skier and rider numbers are dropping seem to elude the big mountains. Very few people learn to ski at a large mountain. There is no relationship building between the mountains and the local teaching hills and smaller areas. The small areas are the ones that start the skiers/riders and educate them about the next step to larger mountains. Yet the mountains refuse to comp the local instructors a few lift tickets. Talk about self spite due to cheapness.
Price for a family of 5 was why we chose Whitefish March 2022. Location doesn't matter as we are driving from MN, that's what Suburbans are for. After a week of skiing I have no regrets and are starting to look for a condo to purchase. These guys had water and hot water for free with cups at the summit! Unheard of anywhere I've been in WY. WA, UT, CO, AZ, MT, WI, MI, and MN! Terrain was varied enough for Momma and hot rod teen boarder and we normally met at same lift on Northside. Don't waste your money anywhere else!
Glad you re-posted a link to this in your newest newsletter. Through some mostly unfortunate family circumstances, I was able to spend a lot of time in the Whitefish area over the past 2 years and got to ski it a lot. I bought day tickets for my family, usually from our historic hotel/lodge in the upper village for about $76 instead of $84. Laughing hard at the Free Market Bros complaining that you are so liberal/leftist/Marxist, when I often think the opposite listening to some of your podcasts. Friends at Whitefish say that the Epic & Ikon peeps have been sniffing around there for years trying to get hold of it.
Well, neither Jay nor especially Whitefish fit anywhere near the high day ticket model location. They are way away from the vast majority of the population (Jay) or super far away (Whitefish). Given that dynamic, is it any surprise they have held to a more aproachable day ticket pricing model? They don't have a huge, close in market to push a multi-pass model with exorbitant day ticket prices. Jay is hard to figure out if this works for them. Sure they invested a ton in the past decade or so, but we all know now how that came to be (not from pass/ticket revenues). Whitefish has and continues to invest, so based on this example, the model seems to work for them in their location.
I'd like to see the numbers on Americans, especially East coast residents, starting to ski more in Europe because of all this. Much more affordable day ticket pricing, and the food is to die for.
While the “nobody pays those prices” is a “Bro” you’ve brought up before, I think that might be true at A-Basin (or at least, “closer” to the truth). They don’t sell tickets on site, and I’ve bought day tickets online morning-of but have never payed more than $100 (Friday after Thanksgiving is currently going for $99 online; Vail is currently at $181 and has less than 1/2 the terrain open that A-Basin does.)
They do list the prices on their website as big discounts (saying the “normal” price is $189), but if they don’t sell tickets in-person, and day-of online tickets are a fraction of that cost, I’m not sure they ever actually sell a ticket at that price. My guess is that’s the day price they report to Alterra, and they get paid a % of that for an Ikon redemption.
That .4% may include the definition of “best ski area.” For you and me, measured on snowfall, terrain and trees, Jay might be best. But we are a small part of the skiing public. People have all kinds of reasons for choosing the ski area that is right for them.
I’d always thought Jay historically had relatively lower pricing because US populations had to drive past so many other great mountains to get there. “Yeah Jay got 15 inches but Sugarbush got 12 and it’s an hour closer!” On the Canadian side, I’d thought the exchange rate had an impact. I’d never got that from Steve or anyone who really knew, but for some reason I took it as conventional wisdom.
I agree with Polumbus that skiing isn’t really affordable. In the US, the MEDIAN household income is under $68,000. I’d argue that for 50% of families of 2 or 3 or 4 skiing is out of reach. The real number who can’t afford it is likely higher than that 50%. The way to avoid the high walk up rates is to commit to a pass, which over the course of a season adds up, when you add in all the other costs beyond lift tickets. I’d be surprised if 5% of Americans ski.
I’m not sure if we agree or disagree on this point: I don’t think you can expect the big companies to “do the right thing” for the long term health of skiing. Most of us do the things we need to do, to keep our boss happy, so we stay employed, and maybe get a raise. Vail answers to the shareholders so they care about next quarter and maybe next year. As customers who do care about the long term (and clearly many of us don’t) our only option is to vote with our wallet. As long as EPIC sells us a million plus passes (or whatever it is), and some people pay the walk up, as a group we are sending a message, that it’s all good. I guess I am free market bro. If we do disagree on this, how would you fix it?
In our recent piece, Feeder Hills Build Skiing — https://nyskiblog.com/feeder-hills-build-skiing/ — we wonder about the thinking in the board room. Maybe EPIC actually does have a long term strategy to preserve the future of skiing. Maybe they are secretly planning NOT to drive Mount Peter and Cochran's out of business, so beginners can continue to feed the sport they depend on for pass sales.
The fact that skier and rider numbers are dropping seem to elude the big mountains. Very few people learn to ski at a large mountain. There is no relationship building between the mountains and the local teaching hills and smaller areas. The small areas are the ones that start the skiers/riders and educate them about the next step to larger mountains. Yet the mountains refuse to comp the local instructors a few lift tickets. Talk about self spite due to cheapness.
Price for a family of 5 was why we chose Whitefish March 2022. Location doesn't matter as we are driving from MN, that's what Suburbans are for. After a week of skiing I have no regrets and are starting to look for a condo to purchase. These guys had water and hot water for free with cups at the summit! Unheard of anywhere I've been in WY. WA, UT, CO, AZ, MT, WI, MI, and MN! Terrain was varied enough for Momma and hot rod teen boarder and we normally met at same lift on Northside. Don't waste your money anywhere else!
Glad you re-posted a link to this in your newest newsletter. Through some mostly unfortunate family circumstances, I was able to spend a lot of time in the Whitefish area over the past 2 years and got to ski it a lot. I bought day tickets for my family, usually from our historic hotel/lodge in the upper village for about $76 instead of $84. Laughing hard at the Free Market Bros complaining that you are so liberal/leftist/Marxist, when I often think the opposite listening to some of your podcasts. Friends at Whitefish say that the Epic & Ikon peeps have been sniffing around there for years trying to get hold of it.
Well, neither Jay nor especially Whitefish fit anywhere near the high day ticket model location. They are way away from the vast majority of the population (Jay) or super far away (Whitefish). Given that dynamic, is it any surprise they have held to a more aproachable day ticket pricing model? They don't have a huge, close in market to push a multi-pass model with exorbitant day ticket prices. Jay is hard to figure out if this works for them. Sure they invested a ton in the past decade or so, but we all know now how that came to be (not from pass/ticket revenues). Whitefish has and continues to invest, so based on this example, the model seems to work for them in their location.
I'd like to see the numbers on Americans, especially East coast residents, starting to ski more in Europe because of all this. Much more affordable day ticket pricing, and the food is to die for.
While the “nobody pays those prices” is a “Bro” you’ve brought up before, I think that might be true at A-Basin (or at least, “closer” to the truth). They don’t sell tickets on site, and I’ve bought day tickets online morning-of but have never payed more than $100 (Friday after Thanksgiving is currently going for $99 online; Vail is currently at $181 and has less than 1/2 the terrain open that A-Basin does.)
They do list the prices on their website as big discounts (saying the “normal” price is $189), but if they don’t sell tickets in-person, and day-of online tickets are a fraction of that cost, I’m not sure they ever actually sell a ticket at that price. My guess is that’s the day price they report to Alterra, and they get paid a % of that for an Ikon redemption.
Food for thought.
As you know Stu, we agree on 99.6% of this.
That .4% may include the definition of “best ski area.” For you and me, measured on snowfall, terrain and trees, Jay might be best. But we are a small part of the skiing public. People have all kinds of reasons for choosing the ski area that is right for them.
I’d always thought Jay historically had relatively lower pricing because US populations had to drive past so many other great mountains to get there. “Yeah Jay got 15 inches but Sugarbush got 12 and it’s an hour closer!” On the Canadian side, I’d thought the exchange rate had an impact. I’d never got that from Steve or anyone who really knew, but for some reason I took it as conventional wisdom.
I agree with Polumbus that skiing isn’t really affordable. In the US, the MEDIAN household income is under $68,000. I’d argue that for 50% of families of 2 or 3 or 4 skiing is out of reach. The real number who can’t afford it is likely higher than that 50%. The way to avoid the high walk up rates is to commit to a pass, which over the course of a season adds up, when you add in all the other costs beyond lift tickets. I’d be surprised if 5% of Americans ski.
I’m not sure if we agree or disagree on this point: I don’t think you can expect the big companies to “do the right thing” for the long term health of skiing. Most of us do the things we need to do, to keep our boss happy, so we stay employed, and maybe get a raise. Vail answers to the shareholders so they care about next quarter and maybe next year. As customers who do care about the long term (and clearly many of us don’t) our only option is to vote with our wallet. As long as EPIC sells us a million plus passes (or whatever it is), and some people pay the walk up, as a group we are sending a message, that it’s all good. I guess I am free market bro. If we do disagree on this, how would you fix it?
In our recent piece, Feeder Hills Build Skiing — https://nyskiblog.com/feeder-hills-build-skiing/ — we wonder about the thinking in the board room. Maybe EPIC actually does have a long term strategy to preserve the future of skiing. Maybe they are secretly planning NOT to drive Mount Peter and Cochran's out of business, so beginners can continue to feed the sport they depend on for pass sales.